Fri 11 Jan 2008
The one year anniversary of 1/11, the day that was perceived to be the turning point of Bangladesh, could not have come in a better day than today – Friday, the weekly holiday. It’s a perfect winter day for people to get up and glance at the morning newspapers over a cup of tea and reflect back on the full year of the army backed caretaker government. It is natural for the people of Bangladesh to look back to measure the progress. After all an year ago today, the people wholeheartedly welcomed this administration with high expectation and with a hope that they will see changes that will bring a free and fair election and an elected government.
There is no formal so called “maap kathi” to gauge the progress but achievements are more than a few. Some significant things happened during the past one year like the separation of judiciary, crackdown on corruption, challenging many in the highest level that thought they were permanently above the law, reformation of some critical institutions. Are people reminiscing over those achievements or are they pondering upon the thought of the escalating commodity prices? Are they musing over the impact of current recession on the long-term economy of the country? Are they contemplating where we stand on the ultimate mission – a free and a fair election and an elected government? Knowing that voter list is 25% complete, are they wondering when will it be complete? When will the emergency be lifted to necessary political reform can take place? Plenty of questions and lots of uncertainty to ponder upon today.
(Cross posted in bangladeshweb.net)
January 11th, 2008 at 7:53 pm
Achievements made in one year like judiciary, anti-corruption, law & order are exceptional, almost miraculous to Bangladesh admin standards. These milestones need to be celebrated, as they will lead Bangladesh to the dreams of a model nation, that people had in 1971, and took us 36 years to achieve.
My congratulations go to current govt, and must Thank God Bangladesh made it before turning into a pre-9/11 failed state.
Constitutional Reforms needed before election are still pending. Three reforms that are CRUCIAL for BD, before elections are:
1) Totally BAN ALL Hartal by law - which shuts down nation.
2) Totally BAN parliament boycotts and absenteeism.
3) Totally ban student violence and terrorism.
After these reforms - country will set to grow.
January 12th, 2008 at 5:24 am
I like to congratulate Gazi to be blind loyal supporter of Undemocratic Regime
January 12th, 2008 at 8:31 am
KGazi Vai
I want add one more: reform of political party. SH and KZ needs to be ban as they proved their failure to run the party as well as the country.
January 12th, 2008 at 11:23 am
Interesting comments KGazi (#1):
I am curious: if we ban the three you have suggested, what avenues do you think would be left for people to air grievances, protest, or simply let off steam?
I agree that all three activities (that you would like to see banned) have caused the country often irreparable harm. But functioning democracies critically need a vehicle for the people who can most often be disenfranchised in a “tyranny of the majority” (however justly elected)to communicate and hopefully redress abuses.
The Americans have their Bill of Rights (however tattered of late).
The British have their courts.
The Swiss have their referenda.
The French have “aux barricades!”
What will be ours?
January 12th, 2008 at 4:38 pm
Adding on #1, #3
There also should be a ban on poking of nose in Bangladesh matters by suburb living NRBs who has no clue about what Bangladesh is all about.
January 12th, 2008 at 7:42 pm
Journey - Instead, should we be blind supporter of so called “democratic regimes” of pre 1/11, and continue to destroy nation with corruption, oborodh and mastani?
bd watcher- Yes, a reform is needed that any politician must be banned from politics, for corruption. Ershad can be the first one.
faltu #5 - so that corrupt politicians can remain unchallenged?
Shahed #4 - Ours must be Law and Order.
Within that US, UK, France and Swiss framework the KEY is law & order.
In USA, and worlwide, protesting PEACEFULLY is legal - as long as there is no DISRUPTION to ‘normal daily life’ of public business, movement and economy. However, any stoppage or shutdown like hartal or oborodh, for politics, is BANNED.
Only in Bangladesh however, billions of dollars were lost in business and economy past 15 years, by shutdown due to hartal and boycotts, created not by our enemy nations - but by our friendly politicians, who mastered HARTALS in the name of “democracy”. It was their weapon of protest!
It is NOT a legal human right in ANY part of the world to shut down an entire nation for politics. It is ILLEGAL, and gets severe punishment. But only in BD, people are brainwashed to believe (by politicians) that OBORODH, Hartal and Parliament boycott are democratic rights!
For any functioning democracy the key is law and order, and politics must not disrupt economy. THAT has to be made LAW in BD, so that economic disruption by politics, is BANNED.
“a vehicle for the people” to protest must be peaceful, clean and civilized, just like anywhere in the world.
Student mastani, political hartal and cultic oborodh cannot be called civilized vehicles for democratic protest, they are recipes for third world poverty and corruption.
Those methods must be banned, and civiled avenues for democratic practice must be enforced.
January 12th, 2008 at 9:16 pm
#5 City snobber
As if you have got all the clues about BD that’s why she is trailing 2/3 hundreds years behind the suburbs you mentioned. By seeing your name I can imagine your level of understanding about NRB’s. You choosed the perfect name which suits with your mentality. To achieve your personal hidden goal all you know how to mislead the people who are living outside the BD. We are well aware of your intensions and took necessary precautions not get infected by your systematic propaganda.
January 13th, 2008 at 2:22 am
The reason I prefer to support this unelected government as I don’t keep any margin of error for Bangladesh in my thinking since there is no scope for that. 36 years have gone and we yet to start our fight for the basics. Mujib, Jateer Pita, Shaheed Zia, Rajakar, Muktijoddah…. this spell of history will never help us to unite as a nation and go beyond our backyard. With our eternal love for BNP/AL/Jammat we’re digging our own graveyard, and time is running out. I saw a window of opportunity in the present government, their effort to eradicate the dragnet of crimes is just a small step toward a big beginning. When I open my door and embrace a life, I try to get everything good out of it and transfer these to my own home, and deep down in my heart keep a hope, someday I’ll be able to go back to my motherland and live a normal life. I had a life there, but it was not a human life.
January 13th, 2008 at 2:40 am
I dig the ideological support of the returning to democracy ASAP and disliking the caretaker govt because they are backed by army.
But, what does general population in BD think about this? Make an effort and talk to the people in the street. You live the ideology, they live the reality… and reality has a strong bias against ideology!
PS: in my opinion, the inflation is really hurting the common people, but otherwise they are happy with this govt
January 13th, 2008 at 7:21 am
Manush, you are absolutely right. We need to go beyond our ideology and lounge-room analysis and ask, what does the general population in BD think? We can argue until the cows come home about the bona fides of the coupmakers and what will happen if the evil politicians return. But it is the people in Bangladesh who really live through our arguments.
I’m curious to know the basis for your opinion. If you’re writing from Bangladesh, then please tell us more about your conversations with the people in the street.
January 13th, 2008 at 12:42 pm
Kgazi (#1 & #6):
…” Shahed #4 - Ours must be Law and Order.
Within that US, UK, France and Swiss framework the KEY is law & order.
In USA, and worlwide, protesting PEACEFULLY is legal - as long as there is no DISRUPTION to ‘normal daily life’ of public business, movement and economy. However, any stoppage or shutdown like hartal or oborodh, for politics, is BANNED.
Only in Bangladesh however, billions of dollars were lost in business and economy past 15 years, by shutdown due to hartal and boycotts, created not by our enemy nations - but by our friendly politicians, who mastered HARTALS in the name of “democracy”. It was their weapon of protest!
It is NOT a legal human right in ANY part of the world to shut down an entire nation for politics. It is ILLEGAL, and gets severe punishment. But only in BD, people are brainwashed to believe (by politicians) that OBORODH, Hartal and Parliament boycott are democratic rights!
For any functioning democracy the key is law and order, and politics must not disrupt economy. THAT has to be made LAW in BD, so that economic disruption by politics, is BANNED.
“a vehicle for the people” to protest must be peaceful, clean and civilized, just like anywhere in the world.
Student mastani, political hartal and cultic oborodh cannot be called civilized vehicles for democratic protest, they are recipes for third world poverty and corruption.
Those methods must be banned, and civiled avenues for democratic practice must be enforced.”…
I understand what your intent is — and I don’t disagree with it.
Regurgitation of “mom & apple pie”, as quoted above is a waste of time because it essentially doesn’t address a number of issues and gets us down, once again, that well-worn path of “he said, she said”.
Chief amongst them is an impression (initial on my part, and now reinforced by your reply) that you haven’t thought this one through.
The establishment of “law and order” is a laudable intent (that I don’t think anyone in this forum is likely to disagree with). It needs to be backed up by a half-decent strategy and some idea of an “ops plan”. I wanted to see if we could (optimist me) get from stage one to the latter two.
Your complete lack of interest in the potential unintended consequences of implementing your 3-step (for want of a better word) strategy implies we don’t have enough of a common ground to get to the meat: something approaching an ops plan.
In the spirit of the times, if this were an Army Staff College Exercise:
We have intent, strategy is piss-poor, ops-plan is nonexistent: a failing grade.
January 13th, 2008 at 10:25 pm
Shahed Aziz #12, “We have intent, strategy is piss-poor, ops-plan is nonexistent: a failing grade.”
———
The ‘intent’ is there, which alone is a significant achievement, since previous govts had no intent.
The ’strategy’ is fundamental:
1. separate the judiciary (done)
2. curtail corruption (being done- ACC established, trials ongoing etc)
3. implement reforms (Yet TBD - parliament, elections etc)
4. run elections - (huge voter list in process)
‘ops-plan’ (operations plan) is very much existent, achievement made so far could not happen without a plan.
Time spent 1 year, achievements significant, PERFECTION not expected, direction on target!
January 14th, 2008 at 8:55 pm
KGazi (#13):
We weren’t talking about the Bangladesh military.
Your failing grade stands.
But let’s get beyond that. Isn’t there anyone else in this forum who could take the intent (Establish Law & Order in Bangladesh, thank you for that KGazi) and start a half-decent discussion about how we can get from “here” to “there”?
I only ask that we desist from this politicking and rapine of good sense (if not decorum) and use reason. At the very least we could get something new. Not this utterly depressing, and so incredibly boring round robin of predictable, incendiary, and utterly barren dialog of the deaf.
January 15th, 2008 at 2:04 am
Shahed Aziz,
I was talking about the CTG in #14, not the military either. If the basic steps 1-4 in #14 didnt make sense, why dont we hear YOUR suggestions?
Are you asking for ours, or getting ready to start a battle here?
January 15th, 2008 at 8:55 pm
Personally, I am with faltu gazi (#5): we NRB’s have very little relevance to what is going on. That said, I wish there was a way to explore further what manush (#9) said:
“…But, what does general population in BD think about this? Make an effort and talk to the people in the street. You live the ideology, they live the reality… and reality has a strong bias against ideology!
PS: in my opinion, the inflation is really hurting the common people, but otherwise they are happy with this govt…”
My gut feel is that his preliminary, however emotional, assessment is correct. But is there any way to check that? And if so, how would we take that further? If true, it is a damning indictment of our institutions and political establishment. The present “hiatus” in at least one of those two presents perhaps an opportunity. But the Army’s presence in the socio-political-economic arena also poses serious long-term risks a la Pakistan.
The present power setup, extra-constitutionality aside, also implies that administrative and structural changes are being made essentially by fiat. Leaving legal holes one can drive a truck through later.
People in the street are unlikely to be on this forum, but there are quite a few Bangladeshis involved here. It would be very interesting to know what they see (preferably minus the ideology.
On the inflation front, that was not much of a surprise. Considering the need to import energy and most food, increases in fuel prices, dry bulk shipping costs, and grain prices, inflation in Bangladesh was a foregone conclusion. Sometimes I do wish Bangladeshi businesses could at least hedge for currency and inflation risk.
January 16th, 2008 at 4:56 am
Shahed Aziz #15 - “we NRB’s have very little relevance to what is going on”
—————-
Totally disagree with that comment. NRB’s can contribute as much if not more to BD, than RB’s. To say NRB’s are not relevant is a way to shut them down, and way to allow the same old FAILED ideas to continue in BD, helping corruption and corrupt politicians.
1. Most NRB’s are part of the brain drain that gained all the education in BD and left BD to get valuable knowledge, which can be applied back home, and benefit BD.
2. The reality of BD is the traditional ideas of conflict, corruption and confrontration politics, which keeps S.Asia in the top of poverty and corrupton lists. NRB’s can inject their better external outlook and help to shake out the reality of failed democracy championed in BD.
3. True Democracy itself is a “non-resident” concept in BD, and therefore NRB’s can be equally powerful in importing true concepts of Democracy into BD, especially as many of them reside in nations of functional democracy.
January 16th, 2008 at 10:06 am
I went to Bangladesh last week as an Amnesty delegate with Irene Khan and we went to Dhaka, Tangail and Rajshahi. I hope to have well rounded posting on the trip. In my trip, i realized that unless you are in Bangladesh and are really part of the conversation inside the country, it is very hard to gauge the real situation from outside.
The disenchantment among the populace is real and the economic downturn , the greater militarization of the admin and the lack of room to dissent is creating a perfect storm for a social unrest. Any comments regarding democracy et al which doesn’t take account of these ground realities are unsubstantial and theoritical at best.
January 16th, 2008 at 10:36 am
I was going through some old posts the other day, posts from late 2006. There was a bunch of comments that went like this: ‘the average man in the street doesn’t care about free and fair election, they want this andolong jhamela to stop’. To this, another bunch went like: ‘people need a free and fair election, and while this andolon may not be a good thing, there really is not much alternative’.
Now we have replaced the first set of comments with this: ‘we need reforms, CTG is doing reforms, elections will derail reform, the man in the street doesn’t care about the election’. I wonder how long before there is an andolon and the 2nd set of comments come back.
We can argue until the cows come home, but the truth is, most of us don’t really know what the man in the street is thinking. The question then is, how do we find out?
And this is not a rhetorical question. I’m not making any grand statement about elections being the mechanism through which we judge popular view, although that is a perfectly valid statement. I’m asking a much more modest question. How do we, the mostly NRB bloggers and their regular commenters, find out what the average person in Bangladesh is thinking?
January 16th, 2008 at 7:17 pm
Our so called Gulshan, Bonani, baridhara etc people in Bangladesh always think how to make money without putting any effort as a result they always want to see the corrupt politicians in the power. They never think about their country.
Bureaucrats and government clerks think how to get more bribes and wasting governments money by travelling abroad quite often so they also want to see the crook politicians in power. they are not patriotic either.
Middle class and upper class business of the society in BD always has the tendency not to follow any rules or bending the rules to do something dodgy to make their living so they eagerly waiting to see the corrupt leaders in power. They only think how can they bang the BD and it is only possible if KZ and SH comes back.
Journalists are always so vocal for the democracy, freedom of speech type thing to blackmail the people. So they are not different from rest of the upper and middle class people of BD society, which means they want to see their favourite leaders SH and KZ.
Poor’s are in Bangladesh only think how to get some money to have their 3 times meal a day and they don’t know exactly who can ensure their basic demands. Democracy, freedom of speech, election are not important to them at all though they are always fooled and used by our crook high class society people politicians, amla, and shikhit bhodrolok.
I myself is thinking when the country will be drowned under the bay of Bengal so that all of us can rest in peace there forever.
January 16th, 2008 at 8:34 pm
Few days ago, Famous journalist Fayez Ahmed came to a talk show in Channel-I( tritio matra).
He told in the program, ” ei shorkarer payer niche mati nai, era jodi politics-e hat dey, shei hat pure jabe”. This is the truth about this regime.
People of Bangladesh will not allow another military dictator to take over and then wait and do “andolon” for “gonotontro” for 8/9 years.In the name of drive against corruption and reform, CTG is trying to dismantle the political parties. WB has projected only 5% growth for BD in 2008, in 2006, it was more than 6%, If this Govt stays another year, growth will be 3% in 2009. We did not have “hartal” and “Oborodh” in 2007, why our economy is in disarray?
KGazi,
Read the article “Increasing restlessness – Dr Shahdin Malik” in DP post, USA and other countries in Europe also had turbulent time in their road to democracy, its proved that military take over is not the solution.
Jyoti,
I am telling how I find out what the people in bnagladesh are thinking.
1.I talk to my family and friends who are in BD. Right after this Govt came to power,One of my friends told me that there is “peace” all around as there is no hartal and oborodh, few days ago he told me, right now, he doubts whether any free and fair election will take place involving major political parties.lastly, he is wondering , except hartal,what is the best way to demand a pay-raise to maintain his family.
2. I watch bangladeshi TV channels. While they were celebrating the success of “1/11″ in all the talk shows, reaction from common people was different. A garment worker said after paying the house rent, she does not have anything left to buy “Dal-bhat”. A street hawker said their income has dropped sharply and essentials are just out of reach. some regular students and service holders told that they support the drive against corruption but the Govt should make arrangements for a free and fair election as soon as possible.
I think an average bangladeshi is not thinking about “democracy” and “reform” right now, he/she is thinking how to manage “dal-bhat” for tomorrow.As Asif S. has pointed out, “lack of room to dissent” has added more misery to their lives.
January 16th, 2008 at 9:50 pm
Shahed Aziz (13): Isn’t there anyone else in this forum who could take the intent (Establish Law & Order in Bangladesh, thank you for that KGazi) and start a half-decent discussion about how we can get from “here” to “there”?
Alright, I’ll bite.
Firstly, it’s not ‘law and order’ that we need. What we need is ‘rule of law’. And secondly, for there to be the rule of law, law needs to ‘incentive compatible’.
What is incentive compatible? Well, the laws have to reflect the social-cultural-technological-practical realities of the population such that a reasonable person left to their own will behave in a way that is in accordance with the law. An incentive compatible law is there to prohibit people from doing things that reasonable people don’t normally do. If laws are incentive compatible, then when people break them, it is easy to argue why they ought to be punished. If laws are not incentive compatible, then you can have very tough measures in the book, but in reality they will not be obeyed.
So much for the theory, let’s look at some examples.
In the US in the 1920s, alcohol consumption was banned. It was called ‘prohibition’. Given the socio-cultural realities of the US, this was not an incentive compatible law. What happened? The law was honoured in breach. It created organised crime. To fight the organised crime, lot of tough measures were introduced. But eventually, the government relented, and prohibition was withdrawn.
Now consider the case of nicotine. Look at any movies from the 1970s or even 1980s and you’ll see how prevalent smoking was in the Anglophone countries back then. But in last 15-20 years, concerted anti-smoking awareness campaign means that people these days don’t smoke in confined spaces. If average person doesn’t smoke, anti-smoking laws have greater chance of success.
Now let’s look at an example from Bangladesh. Some time ago, I blogged about the effectiveness of anti-corruption drive in Bangladesh using a real world example about moving phone lines. This resulted in an article in December Forum:
http://www.thedailystar.net/forum/2007/december/reverse.htm
Given the myriad of hurdles one needs to cross to move phone line, a reasonable person in Bangladesh may find it easier to resort to bribe or use personal influence. The law in this case is not incentive compatible. And the result is corruption. You can extend this micro example to almost any sphere in Bangladesh.
If the law is not incentive compatible, then people won’t obey it. So you won’t have the rule of law. Without the rule of law, law and order will simply be ‘order’. And order may work in other places, but in Bangladesh order has never worked.
January 17th, 2008 at 4:55 am
So that I don’t get confused with anybody else again..I am Shahed Iqbal.
January 17th, 2008 at 4:55 am
Lial bali #19, - thank you for your candid comments about how the common people feel. My experience is that even the general public are aware that their durdosha (poverty) is a result of leadership corruption. Public are willing to endure rough times, when they are aware that concrete reconstruction is pursuing the system. No use having cheap Ilish Maach in the market if they are tainted with Formalin. Better to have pricy rice, than to have a thieving govt, even the poor understand this.
Borsha #20, I did read “Increasing restlessness”, but I dont think we need to go back to pre-1/11 just because prices are high, as previous govts would be helpless too, under current world inflation and $100 oil.
Jyoti #21 - Law and Order, by any other name will rule as clean! I believe in Law to be penalty compatible. When there is fear of penalty, there is order.
January 17th, 2008 at 4:58 am
It is really juvenile for any bloggers to claim that he/she knows what Bangladeshi people think. Bangladesh is a country of 150 million and we would need a gigantic sample to deduce an opinion representative of the majority. I see mere speculations flying to and fro. Some saying people hate this government and some say they love it. In reality, accept it or not, some like this regime and some don’t. Which one is the majority remains to be answered. We can look at different population subgroups (urban vs rural; upper, middle, lower; businessmen, service holders, professionals; landowning vs. landless farmers; students; etc.) and try to get a feel of how each group is affected by this regime and what percentage of population do they constitute. Still speculations but maybe it will get us closer to the truth. I am tempted to get into many specific counter arguments but I’ll hold my piece for now.
I was wondering why people see things so differently. I think the whole thing boils down to ‘trust’. It is not about inflation, lack of freedom or human rights, not about they did good things or not –they may have or may not have, it is not about economy either. It is about ‘trust’. Some believe this govt will hold a free and fair election and step down, and some believe that they will try to cling on unlawfully and we’ll be faced with another autocratic military regime. Some ‘trust’ this government and some don’t.
I think this government did some good things and some bad. I think initially the intention was good but too much military interference has ruined it. I think whether or not the plan they began with become successful or not, they should hold the elections as promised and step down and face the consequences for their failure. The onus of a ‘change’ will lie on the shoulders of people of Bangladesh which could be a very long but natural process and will probably bring more sustainable solutions.
Jyoti, I liked your example of smoking. But the fact of the matter is, it was not only the campaign nor the laws. Smoking was hit from all sides – accessibility (taxation, age of sale), availability (not everyone, not everywhere), social norm (develop public disapproval through awareness), and structural prevention (laws). That is what we need. We need to hit all sectors hard to bring a ‘qualitative change’. It may come in any form, from anywhere, and from anybody. I do not think majority of Bangladeshis will experience any significant change in their quality of life if this govt. steps down tomorrow. Democratic governments will not pave our paths with gold, we already know that, don’t we?
Democracy in third world countries is overrated. In the last 100 years, only a handful of countries have shown true development under democratic regimes. Typical ‘-acy’s and ‘-ism’s may not work for Bangladesh or other underdeveloped countries. It is time to rethink and reformulate our strategy for both freedom and development. One should not come at the cost of the other.
ps: When I say ‘democracy is overrated’, I mean ‘uninformed’ (when people don’t make informed decisions) or ‘manipulative’ (when decision is manipulated by money or coercion) democracy.
**ADMIN, please ignore the previous post. Thnx.
January 17th, 2008 at 6:22 am
Shahed I: In the last 100 years, only a handful of countries have shown true development under democratic regimes. Typical ‘-acy’s and ‘-ism’s may not work for Bangladesh or other underdeveloped countries.
—
This misses a number of points.
First, genuine democratic regimes are a relatively new thing. If you say the universal suffrage is a must for democracy, then no democracy is really more than 125 years old.
Second, very few countries actually attained development in the past 100 years. Poor countries in Europe’s periphery - Spain, Greece, Italy, Ireland became developed. And while they were already middle income countries when democracy arrived, further development happened under democracy. It was the same for Japan. In East Asia, however, democracy followed development in Taiwan and Korea.
Third, while only a few countries developed under democracy, many more countries failed to develop under alternative systems. For every Korea we can cite many Nigerias.
Fourth, and most crucially, democracies do not lead to disasters. Even when democracies make policy mistakes, the effects are modest. Dictatorships can, and do, make costly mistakes. The best examples are India and China. Both chose rejected socialism for market in recent decades. China started earlier and has made rapid gains, and is now on per capita basis twice as rich as India. But then, Indian socialism meant 2% growth. Chinese socialism meant tens of millions dying during Great Leap and Cultural Revolution.
So sure a democratically elected government is not going to solve all our problems. In fact, some of the problems are so intractable that they are likely to be around for many years to come regardless of who is in power or what the form of government is. But we can be reasonably certain that the policy mistakes under any undemocratic government - including the current regime - are likely to be more costly than anything governments could do under regular elections.
January 17th, 2008 at 7:05 am
Jyoti,
I am not denouncing democracy; neither am I advocating for this regime. Although I am doubtful about the success of ‘uninformed’ democracy. Korea now has a 98% literacy. It has been much higher than us all along. And there lies the difference.
I guess what I am trying to say is: why are we so inclined to a defined ‘democracy’ when it has no proof of success? Why not seek out an alternative political system that is most suitable for us?
January 17th, 2008 at 1:45 pm
Literacy has nothing to do with political awareness. The rural mass in Bangladesh are very much aware and knows the right candidates to chose. Similar to Pakistan, the fear is also about repercussion of voting the “wrong way” and it all boils down to rule of law as well. Democracy without rule of law has very little chance to succeed. But still as JR mentions that will all its inadequacy, it has the least amount of chance of causing disaster.
January 17th, 2008 at 4:53 pm
Asif,
‘Literacy has nothing to do with political awareness.’
Most of the political science research will disagree with that sentence.
“..The existence of an association between individual’s education and his or her political role as an adult is beyond dispute, and indeed is one of the most robust observations in the political science literature…’
Emler N, Frazer E. Politics the education effect. Oxford Review of Education 1999; 25 (1&2): 251-273
By political role, they mean participation, partisan choice, and political identity.
But that aside, if we really think that people of Bangladesh is making a conscious and informed (aware of the implications) decision in electing Hazari, Mirza Abbas, Pintu, Falu, Shamim Osman, Nizami, Muzahid….Then we should probably respect that and stop fussing around. Expecting establishment of rule of law and strengthening of democratic processes from this bunch is not realistic.
January 17th, 2008 at 6:38 pm
Shahed,
I am not sure if these political scientists are aware of ground realities of Bangladesh. The rural people may not think like you do. But they are very much aware and that’s exactly why you haven’t seen a party win two elections in a row. When they didn’t deliver, they were thrown out. They are making a choice and it is an informed choice based on the ground realities I,e…what choices are their infront of them, which party will come to power, which party will not make them run away from their home after the election results and also which party delivered for them. If you can ensure a better playing field and guarantee that they will not be kicked out of their home for not voting the party in power, they will be able to vote their minds. Don’t underestimate them . You don’t have to take my word for it. You will get the pulse of the voter just by talking to average citizens for the bottom rungs of the society.
Let’s put this this way democracy serves the average population the most whereas in other alternative systems serves mostly elites like you and I.
January 17th, 2008 at 6:48 pm
Dr.Anwar Hossain-er “Jobanbondi” in CMM court
http://www.sachalayatan.com/mrhrussell/11792
I am surprised to know that Gen Hasan Mashud Chowdhry was an activist of Islami chatra Shangho!!
January 17th, 2008 at 7:39 pm
Asif,
I don’t underestimate them.
Let’s look at the example of Feni. People vote for Hazari and the next time they vote for VP Joynal. It’s not that they want to. They don’t have any other choice. Also, sometimes it depends on whoever will persecute them less (as you’ve said) and whoever had paid them the most money the night before. I am not sure they are aware of the implications of sending Hazari or VP Joynal to parliament. And as long as these thugs are the lawmakers you can say goodbye to the rule of law.
Let’s leave the rural people. Why are people in Ramna electing Falu or Dr. Iqbal?The ground realities are there are only two choices. And they’ll chose the lesser evil. If we are ready to accept this ground reality then I rest my case. But remember, the ground realities are also that who ever is in power will abuse power, are entitled to unlawful privileges, and will steal.
There is always a disconnect between ‘what is’ and ‘what should be’. I think we all want to better things. Every political system needs modification to accomodate the ground realities and ‘democracy’ as we know it, needs reform to be effective in a country like Bangladesh. If there is no ‘alternative system’ out there that would serve the average population then this reform becomes even more important.
January 17th, 2008 at 8:45 pm
Asif. S
You always talk about the research and reference and now your you are denying the result of an empirical research. Is that mean what you believe and do is correct rest are wrong!
January 17th, 2008 at 10:32 pm
Shahed,
That is what i said when wrote that people are politically aware and they showed it in spite of the limitation in choices they have had. To say that they are illiterate and hence politically unaware is an insult to them.
As I said, democracy without rule of law means winner takes it all which we have seen in Bangladesh. So I am with you there when you say that sysmtemic reform is needed. But not the way it is being done now. There is no short cut in reform.
Rhthm of rain, where is the empirical research here that shows people in Bangladesh are politically unaware?
January 17th, 2008 at 10:59 pm
Asif,
I guess how we define ‘political awareness’ is different. If they are ‘aware’ we need to make them more ‘aware’. People in Ramna and Dhanmondi are not illiterate. So the inference you’ve drawn from my comments is not correct. But yes, education and political awareness are related whether you agree or not.
‘if you are not with us you must be with them’ ?? Asif, when did I say that the reform that is being done right now is correct? In all my arguments I am not saying there is an alternative, I am asking if there is any?
Since we agree on reforms, let us be constructive and specific in our discussions. Let us take couple of reforms that most of us would probably agree upon. a) separation of judiciary, b) barring criminally convicted people from running elections, and may be a couple more-c) Banning religion based politics, d) limit terms in power to not more than two times for any individual.
Suppose, this govt. steps down and we have a fair election and of course, either AL or BNP-JI will come to power. Which govt. would you think pass these reforms?
January 17th, 2008 at 11:18 pm
Shahed I: why are we so inclined to a defined ‘democracy’ when it has no proof of success? Why not seek out an alternative political system that is most suitable for us?
—
1. I’d contend the ‘no proof of success’ bit. It is quite glib to say that ‘nothing happened during the 15 years of AL-BNP’. But I argue that there is no evidence of that:
http://www.thedailystar.net/forum/2007/september/vdo.htm
When you look at the data, 15 years of AL-BNP actually stacks up rather well.
2. You’re quite right about democracy being more robust when voters are better informed. So the key question is, given the starting point of relatively uninformed voters (more on this assumption later), what do we choose:
a. wait until voters are sufficiently informed and then start the democratic process, or
b. start and continue with the democratic process now and allow it to evolve as the voters become better informed.
Now, if you choose (a), then the next question is, ‘when will we know that the voters are sufficiently informed’? Are American voters from small southern states who voted Bush in 2004 because Kerry looked too weak to defend them from Ayrab terrorists sufficiently informed? Are the New Hampshire voters who voted Clinton because ’she showed emotions’ sufficiently informed? If we start with ’sufficiently informed’ as the first criteria, then we may as well say that we don’t believe in democracy at all.
3. Is it the poor information among the voters that was holding our democracy back? You mention voters in Ramna, one of the most educated in the country. If they vote for Falu or Iqbal, then presumably it’s not because they are uninformed.
We can discuss why Falu or Iqbal are chosen over Kamal Hossain or Salman Rahman (who ran from Mohammedpur in 1996 and lost his deposit - presumably he wasn’t short of cash to dole out, so money is not an issue). But I don’t buy the argument that people are uninformed.
4. There is no denying at all that reforms are needed. But if we want to have a reformed democracy, then we have to start with democracy as it is first before giving it ‘reform shots’. See the Shahdin Malik article in the other thread.
5. If we decide to do way with democracy, then what is the alternative?
One alternative is rule by a benevolent dictator. Even if we accept that kind of messianic figure in principle, where is the saviour going to come from? And what if the saviour turns into a tormentor? What then?
Another option is rule by ‘talented people’/technocrats. In the last years of BNP rule, this became a rather popular concept among the chattering classes and out-of-touch NRBs. As it happens, technocratic rule has a rather poor record everywhere. Technocrats know how to do their job well. Governance is about building coalitions, gaining confidence, building support, delegating authority to the right people and then getting the job done. The skills needed for governance are not the same as those needed for being a technocrat. Politicians on the other hand tend to have better governance skills. That’s why politicians form governments, and technocrats run the bureaucracy. If there is one lesson we can draw from the experience of this regime, it is that ‘government of talented men’ is not a very practicable idea in Bangladesh.
Another option is a democracy ‘guided by a supervisory body’. This is the Jedi Council solution. If our society had an institution with sufficient moral authority - like the Iranian mullahs for example - perhaps we could even consider it. As it is, this supervisory body is likely to be dominated by the army and is going to set up confrontation for the next generation. Also, even if we had such a venerable body, who’s to say that this body wouldn’t fall out of touch? Remember what happened to the Jedi Council?
And finally we could have party-bureaucratic rule like China. But do you really want to trust one of our political parties and the bureaucracy to monopolise power? Sheikh Mujib tried to do this, didn’t end well for anyone.
So my friend, let’s be reallistic about our options.
January 18th, 2008 at 2:23 am
Nobody is asking a military govt to take over civilian rule, the game plan very much on target is that a civilian election will take place (after MAJOR electoral reforms).
ALL People love to exercise their right to vote, but people also have the right to democratic FIELD that is free and fair, free from mastani and durniti, and devoid of hartal, oborodh and cult dynasties.
Let’s not just run an election in a jungle, and expect the election to turn all wilderness to civilization. That does not happen - we saw that in BD last 15 years.
Yes, so far people DID chose a different party in each election - but what choice did they have?
Given a choice to vote for either a DACOIT or a GUNDA - people exercised their right to vote for one of them! But is that the kind of democracy that will DEVELOP Bangladesh? NO.
Or should we improve the democratic playing field so that chors, dacoits and gundas dont end up being “constitutionally elected democratic regimes”?
January 18th, 2008 at 5:32 am
Jyoti,
Whether I agree or not, thanks for at least discussing other options. I think I have failed to define the term ‘uninformed’ and apologize for that. But in Bangladeshi politics money or education is not an issue - I don’t agree to that.
I am going to pose the same question to you as I did to Asif. You guys definitely know more than me about political systems and constitutional laws.
Let us talk specifically of the reforms to democracy. Let us take couple of issues that most of us would probably agree upon. a) separation of judiciary, b) barring criminally convicted people from running elections, and may be a couple more-c) Banning religion based politics, d) limit terms in power to not more than two times for any individual.
Suppose, this govt. steps down and we have a fair election and of course, either AL or BNP-JI will come to power. Which govt. would you think pass these reforms? Let’s chalk out a hypothetical plan of how these reforms will happen under the rule of any of these parties. We can analyze AL and BNP separately if we want.
January 18th, 2008 at 11:23 am
Shahed I,
In the middle of last year, I wrote a series of posts on possible reform ideas to strengthen democracy.
This one asked for grass root participation in the reform process:
http://www.drishtipat.org/blog/2007/05/13/election-reforms-and-grass-root-participation/
This one discussed proposed reforms to election laws. Anyone has an idea what happened to these?
http://www.drishtipat.org/blog/2007/05/26/reforms-to-electoral-laws/
This one discusses term limits:
http://www.drishtipat.org/blog/2007/06/08/on-term-limits/
This discusses how to introduce checks on the power of the executive:
http://www.drishtipat.org/blog/2007/07/10/rebalancing-the-power-of-the-executive/
Then came July-August, and discussing the reform ideas seemed rather meaningless as, at least to me, the regime seemed more interested in facilitating a personnel changes rather than genuine reform.
Nonetheless, you ask for a way to ensure that some reforms will happen under an AL (or BNP) government? Well, here is a road map that came out of a discussion after last August’s riot:
http://www.drishtipat.org/blog/2007/11/14/one-way-out/
The essence of this is that the political parties must be brought on board for any reform to succeed.
You’d note from the posts listed above that I am not convinced of the merits of term limit. Of the things you list, personally I am against banning religion-based politics. But it doesn’t matter what my opinions are. If AL/BNP are opposed to these ideas, and if millions of Bangladeshis continue to support those parties, then none of those reforms will stick.
We can keep blathering about ‘CTG must enforce law and order’ until our face turns blue, but nothing will stick after the regime and its handpicked successors are overthrown. The crux of Asif’s roadmap is that the politicians will have to be convinced of the merit of any reform.
January 18th, 2008 at 6:40 pm
‘the politicians will have to be convinced of the merit of any reform’
Looks like we are going in circles with our debates. I think the point made by Jyoti / Asif is the right direction we should lead our discussions into. I think there are 3 players and each has a role to play:
1 – What should the CTG do to convince the politicians, so that reforms aren’t just temporary but actually lasts after CTG leaves.
2 – What is the responsibility of the politicians? What do you do when the politicians don’t want ‘good’ reforms ? Leap of faith ? Shouldn’t they step up and convince us that they have good intent.
3 - As citizens what can we do to apply pressure on the party we will vote for that we want good democracy ?
Can we have constructive ideas on this rather than going into CTG / anti CTG or democracy/ anti-democracy debate ?
January 18th, 2008 at 7:19 pm
Thanks, Jyoti.
These are nice roadmaps and a I agree with most of them. But..
‘The essence of this is that the political parties must be brought on board for any reform to succeed.’
This is key to everything. I don’t have faith that the political parties will come together to work on the proposed reforms. It is unrealistic to think that the current leadership of both AL & BNP will agree to the reforms that will undermine their positions and grip on absolute power.I don’t think it will happen. I will be happy, if it does. They have not shown the slightest signs of good intentions even in the darkest hours. As you’ve said somewhere, we can expect the status quo and anarchy of 2006 to return and haunt us every 10-15 years.
January 18th, 2008 at 7:29 pm
Not to misquote Jyoti at the end of my previous post: his exact words were ‘ we can expect the status quo of 2006 to return’.
January 19th, 2008 at 3:24 am
E.H #39 good questions.
My answers are:
1). politicians dont have to be convinced. They are servants of the people’s govt (not feudal nawabs of Bengal), and therefore politicians have to ABIDE by the rules set up by reforms, or else be disciplined. Whatever the Law and Reforms group decide are rules for politicians, have to be practised.
2) If politicians dont want reforms, they can look for other jobs.
3) PRIOR TO, and that means BEFORE, having any elections, we must apply pressure to the Reforms group (CTG), that we want ‘good democracy’. That means no hartal, no boycotts, no student mastani, no corruption, yes impeachment, yes term limits and YES Rule of Law, before politicians get their jobs.
Like any job, we make the job policy FIRST and then hire employees. Same way, we must make REFORMS FIRST, then allow politicians to work.
But we dont make BAD employess write a Job policy, and same way we cannot make BAD politicians make reforms either.
So by the time politicians are elected, if we have NOT already made the reforms, then its too late. Then we are back to pre-1/11. So reforms must be made BEFORE elections, politicians like them or not.
January 19th, 2008 at 5:49 am
Bangladesh is basically now under the grip of World Bank & International Monetary Fund mafias. With the dollar plummeting to record lows and Western civilization unable to maintain their overstretched long period of growth by exploiting Asia and Africa any longer it is natural that they will now use the Bretton Woods institutions to prey on poor economies like Bangladesh. The US is behind this design. It was initiated by the Bush administration through it’s bloodletting savage invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan culminating in the devastation of democracy in Pakistan and sustenance of a Inter Services Intelligence led Pakistani military for eight long years through infusion of USD 15 billion dollars. The result has been the total ruination of Pakistan. Now before Bush leaves office he will be pressed by the mafias who dictate American politics to invade Iran to get grip on Asia and curtail Russian and Chinese influence before it’s too late. They are betting on Indian cooperation in this regard.
In Bangladesh, the same coterie has brought in a Pakistani style government for two long years to see through price hikes in gas, oil, electricity, food and other commodities till the US presidential election in November, 2008. There agenda is to get Hillary elected and then bring in paid agents of a global consortium of shrewd operators like Fazle Hasan Abed, Mohamad Yunus, Kamal Hossain and others with full army backing under cover of a ‘national government’ to secure Bangladesh’s strategic geopolitical location to counter rising India-Chinese-Russian dominance in the region.
At a time when most countries are switching over to gold and Euro Bangladesh has been advised to stick to the dollar. Naturally, since most of the caretakers and the UN caressed army are beneficiaries of the World Bank & IMF circle of financial swindlers. Prafulla Patel of WB and UK’s Anwar Choudhury has already been rendering lip service to democracy while giving full support to the UN nurtured and grown military backed junta. The smokescreen of Islamic fundamentalism has been allowed to flourish by the same circle to destabilize Bangladesh chalked out since 1975 with help from the Saudis.
After Pakistan, now it’s Bangladesh for lunch!
January 19th, 2008 at 5:21 pm
response to posting #4
1). politicians dont have to be convinced. They are servants of the people’s govt (not feudal nawabs of Bengal), and therefore politicians have to ABIDE by the rules set up by reforms, or else be disciplined. Whatever the Law and Reforms group decide are rules for politicians, have to be practised.
= Who decided that? I mean politicians have the equal rights like any other citizens. Why would they be public servant? and since when there is no difference between law makers and public servants?
2) If politicians dont want reforms, they can look for other jobs.
= You want some old public servants and military junta to write down rules for the policians and expect politicians to obey those rules or quit politic. You really dont understand politics. do you. Politics is not hindi movies. In politics no one retires till they die.
PRIOR TO, and that means BEFORE, having any elections, we must apply pressure to the Reforms group (CTG), that we want ‘good democracy’. That means no hartal, no boycotts, no student mastani, no corruption, yes impeachment, yes term limits and YES Rule of Law, before politicians get their jobs.
= We dont need to pressure CTG. They will not give election for their own interest.lol.
Why you dont have anything about armed forces? and what you mean by student mastani? If I had the power I would have send you in Dhaka University and kept you in boys dorm for a week. It would be so much fun.
January 19th, 2008 at 6:43 pm
Kgazi #42
“They are servants of the people’s govt (not feudal nawabs of Bengal), and therefore politicians have to ABIDE by the rules set up by reforms, or else be disciplined. Whatever the Law and Reforms group decide are rules for politicians, have to be practiced”
I have a question. Who will set up “rules of reform” for the politicians? What right does this Extra-constitutional, unelected Govt have to set up “rules of reform”? CTG’s one and only job is to hold a free a fair election, they don’t have any right to take any decision reagrding our politics ,economy or any other thing.
“PRIOR TO, and that means BEFORE, having any elections, we must apply pressure to the Reforms group (CTG), that we want ‘good democracy’”
How can we apply pressure to an unelected, unaccountable Govt, and that’s also under emergency?
“Like any job, we make the job policy FIRST and then hire …”
We have job policy for our Govt in our Constitution and according to that policy, CTG has violated the rules as they are in power for more than a year.
“That means no hartal, no boycotts, no student mastani, no corruption, ….”
Hartal and boycotts should be banned only for politicins or does this rule apply to everyone? Garment workers or Jute mill employees, are they allowed to go for a “boycott”? Students have called for one hour boycott of class. Do you think this should be banned too?
What about the “operation Aziz market” by the army during the student unrest in last August? Need any “reform” here or not?
January 20th, 2008 at 12:12 am
Borsha #45 - “CTG’s one and only job is to hold a free a fair election, they don’t have any right to take any decision reagrding our politics ,economy or any other thing.”
KG- To hold a ‘a free and fair election’ needs NEW guidelines for elections, people funding and parliament, because current ones are not conducive. And that new guidelines is REFORM. If CTG’s job is elections, then their job is also setup new guidelines [reforms].
#45- “How can we apply pressure to an unelected, unaccountable Govt, and that’s also under emergency?”
KG - Not by Rioting, violence or shutdown. But like in all other parts of the world - by peaceful means - by newspaper, media, and by conferences (press, public and university).
#45- “We have job policy for our Govt in our Constitution and according to that policy, CTG has violated the rules as they are in power for more than a year.”
KG- That job policy (current constitution) needs reform, politicians themselves violated it last 15 years by constant Parliament Boycott, corruption and hartals. To correct politician’s violations, CTG needs all our support and the LAW, to prevent future politician violations, by strengthening the constitution with reforms.
#45- “Hartal and boycotts should be banned only for politicins or does this rule apply to everyone?”
KG- Nationwide shutdown hartal and Parliament Boycott is waht i am talking about - and those must be banned.
#45- “Students have called for one hour boycott of class. Do you think this should be banned too?”
KG- Every univ and college must have its own Code of Laws. All over the world, univs and colleges prohibit such boycotts by students, subject to disciplinary actions. Why should BD univs be different? So BD univs must also prohibit such behaviour.
#45- “What about the “operation Aziz market” by the army during the student unrest in last August? Need any “reform” here or not?”
KG- All operations need to be investigated and need REFORMS, whether army aziz mkt or
student’s mastan market.
January 20th, 2008 at 12:54 am
Arif #44 -
= Who decided that? I mean politicians have the equal rights like any other citizens.
KG - yes politicians have equal rights, they are not nawabs, but they cannot make their own rules to control their own crimes and corruption - the LAW must create that.
#44 = “You really dont understand politics. do you. Politics is not hindi movies. In politics no one retires till they die.”
KG- those rules of lifetime monarchy, is not democracy! - those deshi rules need reform.
#44= “and what you mean by student mastani? If I had the power I would have send you in Dhaka University and kept you in boys dorm for a week. It would be so much fun.”
KG- Looks like you know student mastani very well
January 20th, 2008 at 1:50 am
Arif #44
‘If I had the power I would have sent you in Dhaka University and kept you in boys dorm for a week. It would be so much fun’…….This is call mastani (onlive version) and it is only possible by a BD public university student who are hardly taught a good thing by their politicized teachers (some students are exceptional). As a result when these students come out from the university after completing their study can not even compete with their fellow private university students in their own country let alone rest of the world. If you are a DU student then my advice to you open your eyes, see the others students of rest of the world. None of them are involved in politics or mastani when they go to university rather they enjoy their student life by learning, making fun, traveling, hanging out with the girls, keep themselves in creative activities etc. But unfortunately our public university students are kept in the dark by their teachers who got their Phd degree from the overseas universities. Apologize in advance if my post hurts anyone but like it or not this is the bitter truth about present teachers and students of famous BD public universities.
January 20th, 2008 at 5:00 am
KGazi #46
“That job policy (current constitution) needs reform”
Constitution needs reform and that is also by an unelected military backed Govt who have alreday violated the Constitution!! sounds like Musharraf-strategy in Pakistan, where constitution gets changed everyday to protect the power hungry generals.
SO you believe that the “Operation Aziz market” needs investigation.But our media , press are not allowed to talk about it.When the road to adopt peaceful means is blocked, what should we do? any suggestion?
According to today’s newagebd, these are the results of “reform” by the CTG:
“* All the attempts at political reforms or political engineering have failed.
* The administration is in total disarray.
* The economy is gasping for breath.
* Prices have sky-rocketed beyond the reach even of the middle class’
* A food crisis is looming.
* Aggrieved people, workers, peasants and small traders are terrorised and suppressed.
* The campus is getting restive as the authorities have reneged on the promises they made to the teachers and students.
* The violation of human rights, including extrajudicial killing, continues unabated.
* With rights and liberties denied and politics banned, the talk of elections sounds hollow.
* The future look blank, and a pall of fear and uncertainties has descended on the land.”
With the results newage has mentioned,it will not be a thoroughly cleaned system or society that the CTG has promised.
In pakistan, people say that two A’s drive their country, Army and America. The reform
CTG is trying to implement will make BD a country driven by those two A’s.
January 20th, 2008 at 7:16 am
Few people have real grudge against Bangladeshi Public Universities!! Drop outs? Ha ha ha .. Please stop comparing apples and oranges. Which Universities, in which part of the world are you comparing to? What is the socio-economic reality there?
I am tired of hearing “ONLY” Bangladesh has law and order problem, corruption, election fraud, hooliganism. First I thought these people are ignorant, now I think they are ill motivated.
Why the last fifteen years only is the problem? What about other years?
It would be very much interesting to have a discussion on the popular opinion “without 01/11 Bangladesh would have been gone to hell”. Didn’t we have similar situation in 96? Election boycott? Few months of turmoil, then everything came back to normalcy, as it is possible in the realm of reality.
Thanks to Jyoti and Sahed I for thought provoking discussions and arguments.
January 20th, 2008 at 7:52 am
EH (39): great questions. My 2 cents.
1. If the regime wants a genuine election followed by a sustained period or relative peace, it will behave as a caretaker government in the true sense of the term. It will announce that it won’t make any major policy changes. It will then request the Election Commission to expedite the election process. It will meet with the parties and ensure that everyone participates in the elections.
2. Some politicians won’t want any reforms. But in both AL and BNP, there are folks who want to steer a course that is neither the winner-takes-all system of the past nor a deal with the generals. If the regime stayed away from political shenanigans, then by now perhaps these guys would have had a shot at changing their parties. As it is, we have come to a situation where shongshkarponthi has become a deregatory term like dalal.
3. At the end, this is the key. We, as citizens, need to engage with the political parties. We, the self-styled educated middle class bhodroloke people, NRBs or Dhakabashis - and before anyone takes offence, I belong to this class too - have pooh-poohed politicians for far too long. For far too long we’ve said bhordoloke politics kore na. For far too long we’ve said they are all mastans and gundas and thugs. This is like Dhakai cinema. Bhodroloke Bangla cinema dekhe naki, oi rubbish to shob rickshawallah aar kaajer bua ra dekhe.
This needs to change. Are there thugs and mastans in our politics? Of course there are. But how do we reduce the influence of mastans from politics? In my opinion, we can only do so by getting involved in politics ourselves. This regime has characterised itself as a ‘bhodroloke government’. Before 1/11, there was a concerted campaign for 3rd force/surgical operation/bhodroloke biplob. This was the wrong way of cleansing politics. The results are before us. This may shock some folks - but what we need is more politics. Lot more. In our campuses, but also at local sports clubs, school committees, social organisations, and councils.
I was never taken in by the Yunusmania that swept through the bhodrolokes a year ago. But his party name - nagorik shokti - is where the solution is. When politics returns, get involved with the party that you support.
—
Let’s not have any illusions about the state of politics as it existed in late 2006. There is a series called ‘420′ in Channel I by Mustafa Sarwar Farooki. It shows exactly how rotten the things are at the local level. Watch that series if you can. Then watch Scorsese’s Gangs of New York or the HBO series Deadwood. Then read Tocqueville’s Democracy in America. These will give you an idea about what it took to build American democracy.
January 20th, 2008 at 8:20 am
I am a graduate student in the University of Windsor. In my undergraduate year, I was awarded Student Leadership Award for class of 2007 (http://www.uwindsor.ca/units/pac/view.nsf/inTocNetscape/F093F113ABE7B0BA85257336006B3C2D).
I exactly know how student politics work here in North America and to what extent faculty members participate in national/provincial politics. I was an active member of national Democratic Party and actively worked during the various election campaigns. And believe me, students and faculties hold lots of power. Faculty members are generally biased towards different political parties and they actively help student leaders from their own party. I agree that there are many differences in mode of student leadership and mechanism to provide fairness to all students. However, that is due to socio-economic condition of our country. Not for the politics itself.
You want reform in the politics but simultaneously want to withhold students and professors from the active politics. Who would then advice the government and political parties? Who you exactly want to be tomorrow’s leader?
I don’t want to get into private/public university debate. It makes me laugh. Seriously, you guys must stay a week in boys’ dormitory to have the taste of diversity of our student body. IT IS ABSOLUTELY FAVLOUS.
January 20th, 2008 at 8:46 am
Response to : Kazi
#45- “Students have called for one hour boycott of class. Do you think this should be banned too?”
KG- Every univ and college must have its own Code of Laws. All over the world, univs and colleges prohibit such boycotts by students, subject to disciplinary actions. Why should BD univs be different? So BD univs must also prohibit such behaviour.
Arif says:- Who told you that? You got to be kidding me. I thought you were a overly patriotic person. In reality you lack knowledge. There is no such rule in any university in any democratic country.
#44- Who decided that? I mean politicians have the equal rights like any other citizens.
KG - yes politicians have equal rights, they are not nawabs, but they cannot make their own rules to control their own crimes and corruption - the LAW must create that.
Arif Says:- Who will make the rule? Is it not the job of the legislative body to make the rules? And is it not also right that politicians are the members of the legislative body. Which country is exception here?
#44 = “You really dont understand politics. do you. Politics is not hindi movies. In politics no one retires till they die.”
KG- those rules of lifetime monarchy, is not democracy! - those deshi rules need reform.
Arif Says:- What is democracy? DEFINE PLEASE. And how previous governments were monarchies? Please do explain.
#44= “and what you mean by student mastani? If I had the power I would have send you in Dhaka University and kept you in boys dorm for a week. It would be so much fun.”
KG- Looks like you know student Mastani very well
Arif:- Well, I was not smart enough to get in DU. I failed to pass IBA entrance exam. So according to your definition, I am surely not a Student MASTAN. But as I was misunderstood, I must clarify. I wanted to keep you in DU dormitory to give a taste of DU life. I am sure DU students will be thrilled to have you among them and would be able to convince you to stop your propaganda against the highest intellectual institution of our country. Knowledge is not a crime…lol.
January 20th, 2008 at 3:52 pm
Arif #53: Look at your Univ code of conduct, and let us know if student boycott is allowed.
Then research if there is ANY OTHER country in the world which has political state-sponsored student ‘cadre’ based hooliganism, mastani and social terrorism, inside Univs, besides Bangladesh.
Then ask anybody from DU if hooliganism, bomabaji and Mastani at DU are a reality or propaganda.
I am waiting for your findings, on above three points!
January 21st, 2008 at 3:55 am
KGazi# 54.
- YES. Absolutely university strikes are allowed. Any union can go for strike. Senate by laws provide us that right. And seriously, you should learn to be an active learner and check those by yourself to produce an argument in favour of your claim. It is funny that you have asked me to read my university by laws, when you have no idea about those.
- In Canada, almost all political parties have their student wings in major universities. University students actually send delegates for national campaigns. Almost all MPs and senate members hire their interns from their youth wing. Many of my friends interned for PMO/legislature and all of their major credential was their party line. BIG DEAL!!!!!! And again… why I am explaining it to you? I can challenge the wisdom, create awareness among who need it…. But what is the point to argue with people who lack knowledge but still presumptuous to offer ideas for political/social reform in Bangladesh. Sadly, I have spend 30 minutes reading and writing in this thread. pointless.
End of Speech.
January 21st, 2008 at 5:11 am
#55 Arif:
You misread your own Univ Bylaws, it says:
[[UNIVERSITY POLICY IN RESPECT TO JUDICIAL PROCEDURES
ARTICLE I. - SANCTIONS AND DEFINITIONS
Examples of misconduct for which students are subject to university discipline are defined as follows:
..........
c) Intentional obstruction or disruption of teaching, research, administration, disciplinary proceedings, or other University activities, including public service functions, and other authorized activities on University premises.]]
That includes Boycotts, Strikes, and shutdowns.
While class boycott is only a specific example, this STUDENT BYLAWS website below is a typical EXAMPLE, from which BD univs can learn how to practice discipline.
(Arif, any luck with the rest of #54?)
http://www.uwindsor.ca/units/senate/main.nsf/982f0e5f06b5c9a285256d6e006cff78/a00f59d3d14be4d685256e78006aaa29!OpenDocument
January 21st, 2008 at 1:38 pm
Arif #55
I was the active member of the student union and never came across that strike is allowed in the university I went to last year. Perhaps it is pointless for a student to be a member of the student union and start debating with others about the wrights of a student if s/he does not know the law of her/his own university.
January 21st, 2008 at 3:22 pm
#Kgazi 56
- Section C never never included Boycotts, Strikes, and shutdowns as Intentional obstruction or disruption of teaching, research, administration. You made it up. Music Students went for strike last semester.However, use of force during strike is illegal and subject of disciplinary action.
For reference about student stike and protest please follow these articles
http://www.mcgilldaily.com/view.php?aid=1320
http://libcom.org/news/canada-anthropology-students-end-strike-06112007
http://www.macleans.ca/article.jsp?content=20071113_192033_10056&source=srch
http://old.uwstudent.org/article/2005/04/12/165230631
#57
Yes. You should not argue at all. And I feel sad for people who voted for you. You remind me off those councilors who never showed up in council meetings.
–> I am out of here. Pointless refereces, dishonest interpretation of by-laws. Any student union can call for student strike given they have the required support through refrendum. Obeviously they cant force other to follow the picket line but even in our legal system any force is illegal. Same rule is applied for faculty union, and any other labour union. Anyways… out of here.
January 22nd, 2008 at 2:47 am
Arif #58,
There is a subtle distinction in Section C, which says NO ‘Intentional obstruction or disruption of teaching’ meaning NO shutdown of classes BY ANY MEANS.
Also cross Canada demos need to be Peaceful, VOLUNTARY, picketing and striking, as long as, and here is the key - as long as they dont disrupt or obstruct classes.
This is totally different from DU style ’session jams’, ‘lagatar hartal’ and ‘compulsory class boycott’. These are totally illegal in Canada.
January 22nd, 2008 at 4:38 pm
I will not honor your comment by replying it.
As I said before I can challenge the wisdom, create awareness among who need it…. But what is the point to argue with people who lack knowledge but still presumptuous to offer ideas for political/social reform in Bangladesh. Sadly, I have spend my precious time on this pointless arguement. In future, I will surely avoid it. But seriously, you should go and stay in DU dorm for a week.
January 23rd, 2008 at 2:58 am
Arif,
No matter what you do with your ‘precious time’ dont ever obstruct or shutdown ANY classes at Windsor Univ, FOR EVEN 1 MINUTE, you will be suspended.
You can call a peaceful strike with your friends to volunteer and get F grades for your entire semester, but you cannot stop or disturb classes of ANY OTHER student by force.
This law is the basis of student Code of Conduct for any protest.
We dont argue here, we discuss the good bad and ugly of national issues, to see how they can be applied in BD.
January 23rd, 2008 at 5:32 pm
Arif #60
“Will not honor your comment by replying it”…when some one do not have any proper answer they talk like this way. It is better if you accept your ignorance of your own University law rather than keep trying to defend your wrong view about student rights.
“But what is the point to argue with people who lack knowledge but”… Actually they are lacking knowledge who thinks themselves the only pundit on earth and rest are goru ghora gadha and it is pointless to have any discussion with them on any issue.
KGazi Vai # 61
“You can call a peaceful strike with your friends to volunteer and get F grades for your entire semester”……You made me laugh …he he he.
January 23rd, 2008 at 7:37 pm
Arif #60
Actually, I challenge you to get some sticks, run around campus and smash one public vehicle. Let us know what happens when you come out of jail
Be careful, you might be shot by police if you are not cooperative.
Also if you are on F1 status, you might be deported to BD.
Please dont mix up right to dissent with chaos & violence.
January 23rd, 2008 at 8:57 pm
#63,
Is there any university in USA or Canada where
they have army camp inside the campus?
January 23rd, 2008 at 8:58 pm
KGazi
- Don’t worry about my future. This is simply sad that admins approve pointless bogus rebuttals. Find something better to prove your argument. Oh well to begin with, you never had a point.
- KGazi, why you complain about our politicians? You are almost like them (minus their long heritage of struggling for the nation). You can’t accept that you have made a wrong statement. And I have proved you wrong. Accept the defeat and stop accusing me for something that I never said.
- It is not my fault that western hemisphere recognizes strikes, boycotts as legitimate tools of freedom of expression. Grow up and eat a candy.
#63
- You are funny. Hahaha funny…chair thekey poray jawar moto funny.
January 24th, 2008 at 1:22 am
# 64
Putting an army camp was a bad idea but that does not justify things. In fact the way DU protested recently has earned my respect.
Arif, I was not being funny. Atleast go upto your campus police station, and describe to them what you would like to do and ask them what their thoughts are ? I think somebody will ‘chair theke pore jabe’.
January 24th, 2008 at 3:44 am
Borsha #64 “Is there any university in USA or Canada where they have army camp inside the campus?”
———-
This must be a common question among many in BD. “How dare they have army camp in DU campus - amaderke ora ki shara-jibon SHASHON korei jabe? Eta kon dhoroner shashon-tontro? Amra shadhinota peyechi army diye SHASHON houar jonne?”
In USA and Canada they have excellent police force. But they have even more powerful CAMPUS POLICE inside every campus. Many are better trained than the army.
Wikipedia says “Additionally many departments [in USA] have … detective units, special response teams (SWAT or SRT), canine units, bicycle patrol units, motorcycle patrol units, and community policing units and programs.”
See link down below.
In BD, regular police force is a non-entity. The only reliable crime control is army, or recently RAB. To enforce anti-crime in a univ of 15,000 students needs a special force, not the helpless Dhaka Police, left undeveloped for 36 years. So army is applied to prevent rampages.
But the question we really should ask is:
“Is there any univ in the world (like DU) where they have thousand of fake students, where they force class boycott regularly, 3 year course last for 9 years, taxis are scared to enter campus, students burn buildings and private property as a hobby, teachers train cadres for politics, bombs bullets and bonduks are treated like sports!? ”
Which model do we want our future generations to adopt? The DU model or the US/Canada model?
http://nation.ittefaq.com/artman/publish/article_35165.shtml
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campus_police
January 24th, 2008 at 3:52 am
Arif,
You’ve fallen down from the chair so many times in the last few days..hope you are not hurt!!
(pure sarcasm…no offense meant!)
January 24th, 2008 at 4:02 am
#66
- I dont have to go to campus police to ask for their permission. In 2005, they went in strike, leaving us insecure. lol. I need to convince student alliance to give a refrendum and secure enough vote. It happened many times before in many schools in the western world. and will happen in future as well.However, I don’t see why I have to call for a strike in Canada and why would students will vote for strike when they have the bargaining power with the administration.
- I never said its legal to force anyone to follow the picket line. Having said that ask anyone in the labor union in Canada or USA (especially automotive cities like windsor) that what happens if they dont follow the picket line.
January 24th, 2008 at 4:04 am
and Shahed bhai,
ami abar chair thekey poray gelam. lol
January 24th, 2008 at 4:09 am
BD watcher
- what is there to answer? This is the fundamental right of people to go for strike, you can argue DU students are abusing it, but its wrong to argue that students here in western hemisphere do not have that right to call for strike.
January 24th, 2008 at 6:35 am
Arif,
There is a group that does not approve of student politics at all; there is a group who are engaged in active student politics and there is a third group who are proud of our heritage of student movement and believes in political freedom in every possible way but have to think twice,
when they had to lose 2 years of their academic session due to strikes and postponement of exams,
when they had to wake up at gun point in the dorms,
when their teacher (belonging to a certain party) provoked them to beat up their classmates belonging to the opposition,
when the so called student leaders peddled drugs in the campus, abused their fellow female classmates,
when construction of the new academic buildings, libraries, and auditoriums are held up because the contractors failed to pay up student leaders from all sides,
when the poor canteen manager in the dorm cries in public that the student leaders owe him thousands of taka and threatens him when he wants it,
when the teachers try to forge receipt of academic/sporting goods to steal money,
when student leaders decide who’s going to be the next lecturers in the newly built medical colleges regardless of merits,
when student leaders decide who’ll get into post-graduate courses regardless of merit,
when……I can go on and on…
That’s when they think twice. Not all the student leaders or teachers involved in politics are bad. But the good ones are so few and far between that it is hard to find a cure. I never thought I would write to rethink about our student politics.
We need to evaluate the role of student politics in our country. Dissent and to exercise politics is a human right. But we have to make sure that these rights are not abused to such extent that it violates the rights of others. We need to evaluate how much political student orgs, or other political professional organizations have contributed for the enhancement and enrichment of our education and in what way they have contributed to this society.
I asked Rony, “You were not like this, what happened?”
Rony: It all started from a minor personal friction. Then I got tangled in it.
Me: Do you always have to carry a gun?
Rony: All the time.
A friend said from the side: “Even when he sleeps.”
Me: Why don’t you leave it?
Rony: I can’t, not yet.
Rony was my friend from school who got tangled in university politics. He was not a bad boy. But did many ‘dirty’ things while in politics, according to him. He did try to leave it. But it did not leave him alone. Three to four months after that conversation, they dragged him out of the university bus, stabbed him nine times, one in the head which was fatal. Just another casualty perhaps..
(Real story, fake name)
January 24th, 2008 at 2:27 pm
Shahed (#72)
Wow. That was quite a load of ‘on the ground reality’!
We often forget that we are just bunch of arm chair quarter backs.
I thank you for the quote, “…have to make sure that these rights are not abused to such extent that it violates the rights of others.” Fully agree with that notion.
January 24th, 2008 at 3:22 pm
Shahed Bhai,
there is no doubt that there are serious problems in our student politics. And I am glad that you have addressed that issue.
You have also mentioned about heritage of student movement and presence of good student leadership. You did the right justice to student politics.
But what you propose? I dont support ban on student politics….you will lose those good student leaders and bad one will stay in the society. But how you cure the problem? I have no answer.
regards,
Arif
January 24th, 2008 at 8:00 pm
Arif, you have not understood. I am NOT asking you to take permission from police. Nor am I saying you cannot show protest or dissent. That’s a fundamental right. But you are trying to establish that DU style violence protest is allowed in your campus.
I am saying ask the police if you protested in DU violence style, what would happen to you ? That would put an end to the debate on your school’s constitution.
January 24th, 2008 at 8:25 pm
KGazi, #67
Army camp diye jodi chadabaji, tenderbaji, shontrash bondho kora jai tahole CTG student-der kothay army campus theke tule nilo kano?
cholen,shobai mile abar army camp boshanor dabi janai.
teknaf theke tetulia , bishesh kore
shob Govt Institute, DESA, WASA, DCC, shobkahne army camp boshano hok. keu kono durnity korte parbe na. ki bolen?
January 25th, 2008 at 12:07 am
#75
when did i do that?
In entire discussion i tried to convince Kgazi that it is in not illegal for students to go in strike in Canada/US. Did you read my arguement carefully?
I support DU students’ right to go in strike or call for class boycott, but not for a minute I argued that it is right to force others who does not want to follow picket line.
January 25th, 2008 at 1:47 am
Arif # 77,
The whole issue started with Borsha asking if it was OK to “boycott classes for 1 hour” - like they do in Dhaka.
My response was - NO, you cannot boycott, or shutdown or strike (any classes) in any university code of conduct (except in BD). That reply was specifically directed at CLASSES, cannot disrupt classes.
Everyone agrees with you that you can strike peacefully anywhere, thats a human right, but you cannot DISRUPT, stop, or disturb classes while you are striking.
In general, you cannot disturb any business or daily life while striking. Except in BD where the WHOLE NATION is shutdown for days.
Therefore, striking is OK - but NOT striking to disturb class, or boycott class, or shutdown class. If you disrupt academic classes or univ activities - then thats all illegal, even striking.
More comments from above deserve to be continued in “the Great DU Puzzle”. Lets move on to that thread:
http://www.drishtipat.org/blog/2008/01/18/the-great-du-puzzle/
January 25th, 2008 at 4:20 am
Kgazi
These are the comments you have made!
-Not by Rioting, violence or shutdown. But like in all other parts of the world - by peaceful means - by newspaper, media, and by conferences (press, public and university).
-Every univ and college must have its own Code of Laws. All over the world, univs and colleges prohibit such boycotts by students, subject to disciplinary actions. -Why should BD univs be different? So BD univs must also prohibit such behaviour.
-You misread your own Univ Bylaws, it says:
[[UNIVERSITY POLICY IN RESPECT TO JUDICIAL PROCEDURES
ARTICLE I. - SANCTIONS AND DEFINITIONS
Examples of misconduct for which students are subject to university discipline are defined as follows:
……….
c) Intentional obstruction or disruption of teaching, research, administration, disciplinary proceedings, or other University activities, including public service functions, and other authorized activities on University premises.]]
That includes Boycotts, Strikes, and shutdowns.
Finally you changed your stand in #61. You accepted peaceful “strike” but kept insisting that it does not have any response from general students . You simply dont have much knowledge on student politics in Canada or USA. most of the people don’t. And that is nothing wrong. But before giving policy prescription it is wise to check the references clearly. Anyways, now that you have accepted that the strike is allowed in universities in Canada/USA… it should end the debate here.
and few other comments for your reference:
Rush
I was the active member of the student union and never came across that strike is allowed in the university I went to last year.
Bd_watcher
It is better if you accept your ignorance of your own University law rather than keep trying to defend your wrong view about student rights.
January 25th, 2008 at 5:47 am
Arif #79,
Throughout my comments above I insisted one thing and that is “but you cannot stop or disturb classes”
But just as you misread your own Univ Bylaws, you also misread my comments.