Fri 31 Aug 2007
How many DP readers have tried to walk into Sheraton/Sonargaon* fresh off a ricksha, wearing a plain lungi and a white cotton t-shirt (unless it’s for a performance)? Probably none. How many of us have gone to work in Dhaka that way? Probably the same number. How many of us have seen such a thing? I await the comments with much interest, and anticipate a few stories of 5-star hotel guards swearing at ricksha-pullers and beggars!
I apologise for raising these disturbing (and tasteless to some, I’m sure) questions because nothing highlights the differences between the formal and informal sectors of the economy more than the respective dress codes: trousers and whatever for the former, lungis and whatever for the latter. Why, even Dr. Yunus with all his Grameen checked clothing does not dare to wear a lungi for fear of offending some unspoken agreement made long ago on the fields of Polashi…. but I digress.
Asif Bhai’s post below raises concern that the self-proclaimed “bhodrolokes” are disconnected from the little people below. This does not necessarily mean - as is often repeated with much emotional bluster by critics of all governments - that they don’t know what it’s like to live among the “ordinary” people with ordinary incomes. They probably do: few in their generation were born with silver spoons in their mouth. Some probably even know poverty better than some of their critics do.
The point at which the current CTG is as disconnected from the people as their political predecessors is at the lungi-trousers intersection. They inevitably prefer trousers over lungis. None of them can envision the informal sector of the economy as a potential driving engine for economic growth. And you can blame all bhodrolokes for this, not just the government: the media is guilty too, regularly giving FDI proposals first page coverage and local, small business initiatives little to ZERO coverage. The one section you cannot fault is the microcredit industry, which is geared towards the informal economy.

But microcredit is not enough. Enter Peruvian economist, Hernando de Soto, author of “The Mystery of Capital: Why Capitalism Triumphs in the West and Fails Everywhere Else” and “The Other Path”. De Soto basically says that capitalism and markets fail in the developing countries because of a lack of property laws, which makes collateral impossible and as a result capital hard to acquire.
Thomas Sowell writes, “For the entire Third World and the former Communist countries, de Soto’s calculation is that the total value of all the real estate held, but not legally owned, by the poor is more than 20 times all direct foreign investment in the Third World and more than 90 times all the foreign aid to all Third World countries over the past three decades.”
But it doesn’t end there: this lack of formal property rights deprives a section of the economy of much needed government services - utilities, security, etc. - as well as depriving the government of potential revenue. Worst in my opinion, is that policy-makers tend to under-estimate the importance of these sectors when forming fiscal, monetary and social policies.
I said above that I doubt that the honourable members of government do not know what it’s like to live on a budget: we’ve all had to at some point. I also doubt that they know what it’s like to sell tea at the corner shop, potentially squatting on government land that is otherwise lying useless, serving a clientele that would otherwise have no alternative. Nothing better illustrates their under-estimation of the informal sector than their eviction of small street-side shops in Dhaka during a time of high inflation. Those markets were most likely vital for food security, but more importantly for income security for their owners. Neither civil society nor more importantly the government has much research on the urban, informal sector. The result: policies that aggravate an already bad situation.
Those policies were not business-unfriendly. Maybe the “clean” streets might even get us some FDI. That can’t be bad for business. Right? After all, “business” is done by those who wear trousers. The rest is all lungi. Right?
*(onek din Dhakay jay nai, tai notun 5-star gulir naam readily mone ashey na!)
August 31st, 2007 at 10:29 am
kudos for writing this article. this is an issue that has been ignored for far too long.
August 31st, 2007 at 10:58 am
I agree with Quadir (#1), kudos. Some quibbles though:
De Soto makes a valid enough point about governments ignoring the unlocked value (to the economy and to the exchequer) of land.
As do you about the ruinous policy of throttling the overwhelmingly non-formal supply chain in Bangladesh. Nevertheless, I remain unconvinced that property rights alone would be the primary prerequisite for some sort of economic big bang. I defer to people more familiar with economic theory on that though.
The rickshaw-lungi-fivestar test is likely to be flawed. Five-star hotel guards become very adept at recognizing (for want of any better word, and with cringing on my part)”class”. Personally I have walked in wearing pajama panjabi (and not the kind currently in fashion, simple cotton ones) in to hotels like that in Bangladesh, India, the US, and some European countries as well. Nary a flicker.
August 31st, 2007 at 2:32 pm
Thank you both. Shahed bhai, it’s probably the Sowell quote, but in no way do I prescribe this as another “magic bullet”.
August 31st, 2007 at 2:48 pm
The reasons why capitalism worked in the west was because:
1. This economic system of theirs was accompanied with effective policymaking
2. Colonialism - Europe’s almost parasitical relationship with its colonies allowed its economies to flourish at the expense of others. In today’s age of American dominance and the WTO, such scenarios for Eastern undeveloped economies are unthinkable.
3. At no point in the last four centuries was there any population pressure on Western economies, the likes of which we see in Bangladesh, India and Indonesia. One point that I always make is that even if an economy is large enough to support a large population(relative terms), large populations always make organization and policy implementation more difficult and as such, I regard it as a barrier to economic growth.
Simply mordernizing property rights will not make the problem go away. There is an obvious difference between occupying land and owning it. The latter can only be done by the “urban poor” or other “little people” if generating savings, obtaining credit and mortgages are made easier for them. To make this happen, hyperinflation must be put to a stop and this, in my opinion, can only be done by streamlining the supply chain. In this regard, the government MUST update its market competition policies. Certain quarters in the country are trying to get the government to do just that and I hope they succeed.
And when the issue of the government evicting street vendors comes up, the true tragedy is that they did so without providing them with alternative measures that would ensure a decent living. This issue is closely related with our population problem which in my eyes is soon going to become a population disaster (our population is growing by 2.5 million every year). The more people there are, the harder it is going to become to get jobs. These street vendors who have been evicted, where is their bread going to come from when jobs are already so hard to come by?
The investment climate in our country must be improved drastically (and that is never going to happen if World Bank recommendations are followed) in order to provide more jobs and this must go hand in hand with a sizable decrease in cost of living and inflation (as I mentioned before supply side must be improved). The sad fact is that these things will take a long time, and even then, there aren’t going to be enough jobs for everyone (I mean unemployment rate of 5% or less).
Bottom line: urban poor, rural poor; the more people in the country, the more living in poverty. Population problem=economic problem=poverty=crime=barrier to investment and economic growth=continuation of economic problem. The VICIOUS CYCLE OF DEVELOPMENT ECONOMICS
AND IT ALL COMES DOWN TO THE FACT THAT PEOPLE IN SUITS DO NOT CARE FOR THE ONES IN LUNGIS AND NEVER WILL.
Castro, Mahathir, are you listening…?
August 31st, 2007 at 4:35 pm
Five star hotels in Dhaka(currently in operation/under construction):
Shonargaon, Sheraton, The Westin, Hilton, Raddisson and Holiday Inn.
I may have left out a few names there since I haven’t myself been in the country for 2 months.
There is a restaurant called Sublime in Raddisson. It costs around tk10000 per person. Joy Bangla…
August 31st, 2007 at 7:07 pm
we all are fool they are intelligent.
they are intelligent because they have money.
we all are rubbish, they are diamond, because they have money.
my professor one day said long before, i will give you all the dollars of the world with one condition - you will not be given food, would you agree.
i wrote long before in dp - they have not gone to see how the farmers grow crops, they have not gone to the muddy lanes of the villages, have not seen mother having no milk in the breast for the kid, justice of the poors gets kicked back from the outdoor of the rich and so on so forth.
when we all shall be happy, when the ‘have’ group will sacrifice very little for the ‘have not’ group.
when they will not play toy with the fate of the poors.
when the decision at policy making level will not be taken seeing the situation of capital city only.
we all are unfortunate still where even at this moment of tight situation we are not united for a better future.
ALO
August 31st, 2007 at 10:28 pm
Good point AsifY- and now how to work at ‘reclaiming the lungi and breaking ‘the Great Divide’??
Organise fashion shows with cool lungis on offer? start wearing them to your office? Definitely more comfortable than synthetic pants I’ld say!!
In the whole of South Asia, its mainly in Kerala that men wear lungis with pride for pen-and-paper jobs and also on ceremonial occasions
(oh, and i forget, in the Sundarbans too when worshipping Bonbibi so as to distinguish yourself from dhoti-clad pujaris! cool na?)
September 1st, 2007 at 12:38 am
It will be a tough act to make lungi look cool. But then again, nothing is impossible. My congratulations to the fashion designer who can pull it off.
Farhad
September 1st, 2007 at 1:18 am
I fear that making a fashion statement by wearing lungi will not change the attitude towards the have nots. Instead of “lungi” there will be another symbol by which the segragation will still persist. Robert Fuller’s work on Rankism and the dignity movement http://www.breakingranks.net/weblog/rankism
might interest some of you.
Shabbir
September 1st, 2007 at 2:19 am
Quadir bhai,
Excellent points raised. A few quibbles:
1) Streamlining the supply chain and perfecting market competition policies are obviously worthy endeavours. In no way does that contradict the need to bring informal markets and businesses into the formal economy, in whatever way is feasible, whether through property rights or other legal instruments. Ie. These attempts should consider and incorporate the role of the informal markets within them.
2) Property rights alone cannot make this all happen. For the sake of brevity, I did not go into the details of de Soto’s policy prescriptions, which includes among other things, less bureaucratic tangles and more private loans to small entreprenuers. Needless to say, he’s a big advocate of microcredit, as long as it doesn’t just remain micro, but starts becoming “mini” and targets small entrepreneurs as well.
Just to emphasise that property rights are not enough, he himself is quoted as saying, “I’m not saying that other reforms aren’t necessary. I’m simply saying that a property rights system is a principal reform, without which other reforms are difficult to manage. It’s quite clear that property law alone does not resolve the other problems. But to me, what is also quite clear is that without property law, you will never be able to accomplish other reforms in a sustainable manner.” (courtesy, Wikipedia)
3) Population. Yes, Europe had it good, exporting its “surplus” to Australia, Americas and Africa. But at what point is a population a “burden” rather than an engine for growth? I understand that demography can greatly twist the “laws” of economics that come from a Euro-centric perspective, but demography is not destiny. A lot of things that worked in Europe can actually be done despite the population, others might fail because of it. The Asian Tigers seem to have done some of them. China seems to be getting there. Why not us?
Where I differ with you greatly is again on the pedestal on which you seem to put FDI (I might be misreading). What’s wrong with domestic capital? On the political level alone, at least it doesn’t come with baggage… but in a country with such warped national security threats, who can tell eh?:)
Lastly, another small quibble: “Population problem=economic problem=poverty=crime=barrier to investment and economic growth=continuation of economic problem” - seems like a population-poverty trap to me. In no way is this the result of the field called “development economics”, except in the eyes of people who think NGOs are factor #1 in keeping Bangladesh “underdeveloped”.
Annu,
Do I know you in real life? ‘Cause you sound eerily like an American I used to live with. Funnily enough, his family was from Kerala and he tried his best to make the lungi cool. Alas, subzero temperatures and a lungi do not mix….
Farhad bhai,
Let’s try and get Beckham to wear a lungi. He’s already pretty fond of sarongs, so it won’t be too big a leap. Can’t wait to see hip Dhaka teens wearing lungis along with their Man Utd. T-shirts and the current Beckham hairstyle…
Shabbir,
Thanks for the link.
September 1st, 2007 at 2:38 am
Asif
I very much agree Lungi is a symbol of a class divide. However, more importantly, you will also see lungi as a symbol of generation gap and that is somehow overwhelming the class gap. e.g. Lately, you will notice that working class young men, esp those grown up Tokais will be wearing trousers while their previous generation never worn anything but Lungi. And if you look very carefully at your favourite Dhaka, you will notice that slowly the dress code difference is disppearing from the class divide. I had this post last year in this forum.
********************************************
This was a recent picture from Bangladesh newpapers. Not going into the context of the news, look at the different outfit the father and the son are wearing.
While lungi remains the prime outfit of working and older middle class of Bangladesh, it has been loosing (or lost) it’s popularity among the youth. When I grew up, started living in dorm, “lungi” was the trademark dorm dress of Shibir students only. For rest of us shorts replaced lungi.
However as I came further along my life, I am now again a happy and occassional ” lungi wearing”, and constant “dal and bhat eating” Bangali.
Nothing can beat lungi as the casual homewear. Only thing, you have to be very quick in running back after collecting your mail or newspaper or throwing trash. Otherwise the neighbours may find you wearing this strange skirt.
Man, I love lungi.
September 1st, 2007 at 2:48 am
BTW, I don’t know whether the acting president of Awami League read your mind or not, he ( Mr Zillur Rahman) is happily giving TV interviews daily wearing lungi and panjabi.
September 1st, 2007 at 3:59 am
Generation gap is certainly there. As I’ve mentioned to sufibaba, wearing shorts even as I write this and yes, this is now officially “the lungi post”.
September 1st, 2007 at 5:34 am
5 *s: Sonargaon, Sheraton, Regency, Westin, Hilton, Raddisson, Holiday Inn. There is talk of 2 more coming. There is also the hospitality suite run by Brac, don’t know how many stars.
September 1st, 2007 at 5:43 am
Great post. Some observations.
1. Boring economic stuff.
Europe in 1500 had same kind of Malthusian trap - whereby any technological improvements led to population rise and food intake per person remained same - as South Asia, Middle East and China. Industrialisation led to Europe breaking its Malthusian trap. East Asia also broke out of its Malthusian trap in the past 50 years through industrialisation.
One reason why industrialisation breaks Malthusian trap is because unlike in pre-industrial technological advances, industrial production process allows women to participate in the monetised labour force. As women participate in the cash economy, their opportunity cost of having a child rises. At the same time, industrialisation allows the society to spend more resources on health, and infant mortality drops. So, industrialisation leads to a lessening of demographic pressure, not the other way around.
Why did Europe industrialise before China, Mid East or South Asia? This is one of the key questions in economic history. And colonialism is only part of the answer. Despite having large colonies, Portugal, Spain and Russia remained poor until the 20th century.
Finally, property rights is not a silver bullet. Anyone claiming to have a silver bullet is either naive or knave. And De Soto is neither. Yes he is a fan of micro credit and wants it to become mini. I think he is on to something there. But NGOs won’t work with mini credit - finances to small business like local cha-r dokan or napit. We need people with profit motive to get in. Any banking expert around to comment?
2. Fun lungi stuff.
As someone spending many years by the South Seas, I can tell you that in a tropical area, nothing beats lungi in comfort. Okay, I did wear it with a belt - but thst’s my lack of co-ordination skills more than anything cultural.
And I didn’t feel particularly self-conscious. In tropical Oceania, even white folks wrap a cloth around their waste in the summer. And people of both sexes look quite attractive in it provided their posterior is sufficiently convex. I’m sure there’s plenty for fashion designers here.
September 1st, 2007 at 9:22 am
Asif bhai, thank you for your feedback. Let me start by saying that I agree with you on most of the points that you have made.
I put FDI on such a high pedestal due to the numerous other benefits it brings along with investment such as transfer of technical know-how and bringing more attention to the country in the international arena. Not that I’m saying that multinationals should be brought in the hordes and allowed to do whatever they want. By all means they must be regulated (unfortunately I don’t see that happening with a corrupt government).
In reply to your point on population. Population starts to become a burden when a country’s economy is not large enough to sustain it i.e. only a small portion of the population is able to reap the majority of economic benefits. You mentioned the examples of certain Asian countries that have achieved economic success despite their population. Japan is one such country, but neither South Korea nor Malaysia had the population problems we do. After all, there is such a thing as overpopulated, already the population density in our country is one of the highest in the world.
What I’m trying to say is that had our population been smaller or if it could remain stable (meaning fertility rate of 2.1), it would cost fewer resources to provide education, health care and social security. It would also allow us to avoid problems such as high unemployment and underemployment.
And sorry about the last point, I meant to write “a vicious cycle in our economy.” Sorry, I did not re-read the last part of my entry since I had moved on to another article on this website. Thanks again Asif bhai.
Another point I’d like to raise is that most Bangladeshis are usually polite to well dressed people (I don’t mean family or whatever I mean random people that we might meet anywhere e.g. elevator, garage, etc.)
September 1st, 2007 at 10:43 am
Asif, ami markin mal noi, Kolkatar!
and even if a lady, eye the lungi with some envy..
September 1st, 2007 at 3:02 pm
Great stuff. Learning a lot of fine things in the middle of fun, light discussion.
Jyoti,
What other reasons are hypothesized for early industrialization in some part of Europe? In some other place you said (not an exact quote), “relationship of democracy to development” is not quite understood. If I understood correctly, Amartya Sen shown, great famine never occurred under a multiparty system. Comment? AsifY suggested to post my question to you in another link. Now, I catch hold of you in this link.
All economic indices in Bangladesh were better between 90-2006, though there were some debate about the quality of data. My question, is there any good economic analysis (not opinion), relating this development to governance system? If not, at least your take on this. Could some of it be the late effect of Ershad’s infrastructure building (no matter how much I hate him)? Thanks.
September 1st, 2007 at 6:39 pm
That’ll teach you to use metaphors involving lungis, AsifY! My Kerala friends make lungis look cool too.
Tk 10,000 for a meal at a restaurant in a Dhaka hotel! And Holiday Inn is a 5*?!
Wow, I guess I’ll be off to put on my batik lungi now (posterior-shmerior, on a girl, people think it’s like a long skirt). Naholey London-er ei obishshashsho gorom summer deshi style-e katabo kemne (no pun intended)?
On a more less frivolous note, good points you raised here, both metaphorically and literally. The mentality towards the lungi is often quite indicative of the mentality towards the wearer.
September 1st, 2007 at 10:22 pm
Sorry AsifY for making you post into a Lungi post . :). Didn’t intend that. Problem is that I don’t understand economy. When I took away economy from your post I was left alone with Lungi only. Alochonar alo i jodi na thake tahole ki thake ar boloto?
September 1st, 2007 at 10:46 pm
Arey na Rumi bhai, I’m enjoying this as much as anyone else. I’ve laughed more in the last two days than during the last two weeks. Some much-needed dose of humour has been injected into this boring economics post. That is the magic of the lungi!
Re, Zillur Rahman, hardly the poster boy for the revival of the lungi among the new generation. I’m still counting on UK DP-ers persuading Beckham…
Annu, what’s the state of the lungi in Kolkata?
So, my old friend, lesson well-learned! What happened to our trans-Atlantic duel? Maybe we can make it double as a lungi-awareness stunt by wearing lungis even as we fight? Like Jyoti bhai, I confess I will need a belt.
More seriously, though not a keen lungi afficionado, but isn’t there some sort of differentiation within lungis as well based on quality and price? I remember those “Standard” lungi ads.
Long Live Lungi!
September 1st, 2007 at 11:28 pm
I’m quite sure that many of our 10 advisors wear lungis at time and in places they deem appropriate. That issue of taste has little to do with humility or connectedness to the Awam. There is no need to romantisise/fetishise it further than, the turban, the sari, jute, the panjabi, or that half sleeved vest that namazi old man wear.
The worst thing one could do is to turn the lunghi into a shallow consumerist fad(very Bono). That would be mocking the poor, and those who cannot afford more complicated clothing. Perhaps you could spin female bdeshi lungi wearing as empowerment of some kind. … maybe somebody alreay has.
September 3rd, 2007 at 12:06 am
I doubt that mockery of the poor was anyone’s intention here, Fugstar. This could be a simple matter of the comfort that comes with a lungi’s simplicity. And perhaps a few words said in jest and without malicious intent.
Aar AsifY, bhaloi forward to tumi (I have a feeling that you’re young enough for me to get by with the cholti)…dui post-ei amakey old friend baniyey phelley!
I’m not sure that I should duel with anyone who needs a belt to hold up his/her lungi. That’s just plain cheating. And yes, as is the case with most kinds of clothing, there is indeed differentiation between lungis.
September 3rd, 2007 at 3:33 am
Boring history lesson for SC: Non-colonialism related explanations for why parts of Europe industrialised when they did.
- Institutions: Britain and Holland had more secured property rights and control over the arbitrary powers of monarchs, allowing for better investments and trade. ‘Institutions matter more than anything else’ is the current dominant thinking in development studies.
- Geography: Europe was fragmented politically and geography made it difficult for any one country to dominate the rest. Different countries competed for supremacy, and the ones where science and technology were favoured industrialised. Jared Diamond’s ‘Guns, germs and steel’ is the best on this thesis. A variation of this is that in China and elsewhere, innovations were stifled by the state because it could (incumbent monopolists don’t like innovation anywhere). For example, Chinese fleet could have sailed on to Europe in 1420s and colonise England, but the emperor banned all naval expeditions.
- Culture: Max Weber’s ‘Protestant work ethic and the spirit of capitalism’ — Brits and Dutch had the right stuff, and everyone else were just lazy or superstitious. This fell out of fashion for a long while, but has been experiencing resurgence in recent years (along with other orientalist stuff - there are other people more qualified than me in the post-modern talk: hint hint AsifY).
End of the lesson. All theories have some merits and problems, and you’ll have to pay me to take a side.:)
September 3rd, 2007 at 3:35 am
Boring lesson continues… for democracy and development, our experience is here:
http://www.thedailystar.net/forum/2007/september/vdo.htm
Sen’s says that if you have multi-party democracy and free press (even a dysfunctional one), flows in information will make a famine very unlikely. A related point is that dictatorships can make much costlier policy mistakes than democracies. For example, both India and China experimented with socialism before turning to the market. China started earlier, have grown faster and is much richer than India today. But in the 1950s and 1960s, Maoist communism killed tens of millions of people. Nehruvian socialism merely meant stagnant economy - independent India hasn’t had a famine despite its many problems.
And now the fun stuff (for So and Fug) - empowerment shempowerment, I’d love to see Deshi girls in lungi, and not just in London.
September 3rd, 2007 at 6:49 am
Thanks Jyoti. I will try to collect the suggested reading though not sure how much I can digest.
September 3rd, 2007 at 9:37 am
Wow, I feel like a dumb brunette hashing out the fun part of the blog….Oh, well, if the shoe fits….Annu, emon shundor lungi porey dekhaley tumi gotokal, Jyoti would have been pleased, methinks.
I have a feeling je tumi jokhon deshey jaba, people of many different socio-economic backgrounds will appreciate you for embracing the culture in such an aesthetically pleasing manner. Any time you get annoyed at being treated like a foreigner based on what you look like, consider that if I tried wearing a lungi out on the streets, however good or bad I looked, people (again of many different socio-economic backgrounds) would be likely to wonder what’s up with me. I say this based on many years’ past experiences having gone out in a panjabi or in clothing made from gamchhas (which suddenly seem to have become fashionable amongst BD urbanites). Preconceived notions no know class boundaries.
September 3rd, 2007 at 11:06 am
So, that wasn’t a lungi!!! It was a long batik skirt - yes, I wore it with a smile that morning thinking of this blog entry and the fact that it did look like a lungi but it wasn’t
Ar shono, eto gyan dila kene?
AsifY, the lungi scene in Kolkata is pretty much the same as that of Dhaka - the working classes wear one to work, the rest prefer sporting one within the confines of their homes..
Lungi wearers zindabad!!
September 3rd, 2007 at 11:33 am
Just goes to show that lungis do look like skirts sometimes (and vice versa, it seems). Gyan dilam Monday dekhey!
I’ve actually heard it said by younger deshis that that’s why some people don’t like lungis. The whole gentleman’s petticoat aesthetic does not appeal.
How the lungi is worn does give off a particular vibe. A lungi with a panjabi looks different from a lungi with a sando-genji. One might argue that we’ve been colonialised to an extent that we shun our own. Perhaps, but imagine if the British started complaining about how fish and chips are losing out to curry…
As I had mentioned earlier in this thread, I think that comfort is a factor. The reasons for the divide may not be as simple as, “Lungis are for poor people”. I would imagine that the likes of Jyoti and AsifY would rather be focussed on work than whether their lungis will hold in a professional environment. Also, they might not want to be distracted by having to tie and re-tie repeatedly if they have a choice. And perhaps it is for the greater good if our businessmen and politicians feel the same way. It is the attitude we take towards people that counts.
September 3rd, 2007 at 11:54 am
While we are at it, a quick search in the uv blog on lungi (to show how we have not neglected it ) gives us these results
The best one here is that famous lungi analogy between Kawser Jamal and Rumi bhai
http://www.drishtipat.org/blog/2007/03/08/a-fortunate-tareq/#comment-122329
September 3rd, 2007 at 7:04 pm
SC,
What follows is simply my opinion: As Jyoti bhai hints, I’m not a huge fan of the culture explanation. What social sciences are very bad at explaining is what we ordinary mortals call “luck”. In many ways Europe was lucky. Not in terms of geography or institutions, but simply lucky in terms of circumstances.
Western analysts don’t like to see it that way. I consider it an inherent defect. So they bring up “culture” as a gloriously unquantifiable variable.
Weber’s analysis has been taken apart by many who point out that capitalism and trade was much more prevalent in medieval, Catholic Italy than anywhere else in Europe. “Protestant work ethic” is simply the history accepted by those in power: white anglo-saxon protestants aka the people who settled the US.
If Weber has been enjoying a resurgence in Western academia, then that only points to the influence of what I call the neo-con ideology. When two of the most revered English authors are Rushdie and Amis, obviously we’re not going to hear much about “cultural equivalence”. Advanced apologies to fans of (Sir) Salman ….
Everything else Jyoti bhai mentioned, I more or less agree with. Colonialism was a BIG factor as well, often overlooked for obvious guilt-ridden reasons. To add a small point to the restrained monarchies of England and Holland: this actually helped the government get more loans from banks, since checking the absolute power of the monarchs meant that they had to pay back the loans from then on. I encourage you to draw parallels between that and the democracy debate.
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Fun stuff:
So, anyone who wants a duel with me readily qualifies as an “old friend”. Btw, it took me until comments 25 and 27 to realise that I was speaking to someone of the feminine persuasion… suddenly not sure about the duel anymore! Violence against women and all that… not that I doubt your ability to dish it out!:)
More seriously, this post was never based on a “Only poor people wear lungis” kind of assumption. It really has everything to do with formal and informal professional settings. At home, I feel that most people still prefer the lungi over everything regardless of whether they work in the formal and informal sector.
I can’t speak from experience, but I do believe that a belt should substantially cut down on “adjustment time”. My friend from Kerala once sent me a forward which explained that at least 30% of a Keralite male’s lifetime is occupied in fixing their elaborate lungis…
Asif bhai,
I remember reading that comment and bursting out laughing. Those were my silent days on UV. As Annu says, Lungi Zindabad!
September 3rd, 2007 at 7:57 pm
AsifY, my “old friend”, I wasn’t suggesting that your post was about only poor people wearing lungis, simply that I have heard younger deshi people making remarks about lungis that gives me the impression they see things as such (perhaps only on a subconscious level).
If indeed one is constantly worried about having to retie one’s lungi (and yes, I have seen a Keralan man spend most of an entire evening in a formal setting doing just that), then may I suggest (gasp) the trouser? Of course people at home prefer their lungis…goromey bhaloi kajey ashey. Just as many women in the west like to wear skirts (or lungir moton dekhtey skirts) in the summer.
Ei lungi-tungi porey beraley to ektu shomoy lagbey for people to realise amar persuasion. I’m not sure if I should be pleased at the androgynous nature of my writing style or affronted. In any case, the duel was more of an a** kicking in disguise. I was just calling it a duel to let you save face, but I guess this excuse works too.
Now, just to clarify (eishob serious stuff bujhtey amar ektu time lagey to), are you saying that you don’t like cultural explanations of economic phenomena because of sweeping generalisations like Protestant Work Ethic or because you don’t feel that there are actual cultural factors of significance to economic phenomena?
Aar Asif Bhai, thanx for reminding me about the Rumi Bhai/KJ exchange. The comeback to that comment was pretty good too. Most notably, “When, I can see day by day one after another lungi getting stolen and than the very know people the Goverment ( in this MPs, Ministors,Chamchas are Falu,Alo,Tareq Mamun) are stocking those lungi in ( money,deeds,business) and making a mountain of lungi than what do you want me to believe that how come my lungi got stolen and how come I become clothless not cloth to wear to save respect and dignity( in this case the Jonogon).”
Awesome.
September 16th, 2007 at 9:12 pm
“are you saying that you don’t like cultural explanations of economic phenomena because of sweeping generalisations like Protestant Work Ethic or because you don’t feel that there are actual cultural factors of significance to economic phenomena?”
So, ol’ pal (as we Amreekans like to call it), thank you for posing quite a difficult question! I really have had to think about it hard.
Yes, I’m fairly allergic to sweeping macro generalizations like “Protestant Work Ethic” or “Bangali Laziness Ethic”.
It’s not that I don’t like cultural explanations. It’s often that there is too loose a definition of “culture”. Loose meaning self-serving to the researcher: e.g. I, the British Imperial Orientalist in 1840-ish, would like to find out why it is that Bangalis are not as “advanced” as we are. I go and talk to different people (or only bhodrolokes who can sorta speak my language) and selectively jot down all aspects of their behaviour that support my initial gut feeling/ prejudices/preconceptions. This set of behaviours becomes “Bangali culture”. Everything else is excluded or put down as “foreign influence” (”Amrai to oder ke shikhiyechi ki bhaabey bhaalo kaaj gulo kortey hoy”!).
If this is how culture is measured and defined, then obviously “culture” as an explanatory variable becomes worthless. So my answer to that would be the ever dependable “it depends”. Some measures of “culture” are valid with certain caveats. Most are not. Strictly MHO.
As for the transatlantic “ass-kicking”… in your dreams, So, in your dreams.
September 17th, 2007 at 10:34 am
And here I thought you were ignoring my question, AsifY (and perhaps cowering at my ability to dish it out, as you say)! I agree that the arbitrary use of culture as an explanation would be pretty worthless if used to justify a predetermined viewpoint, but one could say the same of other factors as well. A researcher can find ways to quantify any number of (no pun intended) factors. This can be said for researchers who choose to look only at data that supports their theories as well as those who are genuinely looking for root causes of economic phenomena. I only asked in the first place because I personally think cultural and other social factors do have significant impact on economic phenomena (disclaimer: I chose to actively avoid economics past my first year of university). I agree that sweeping generalisations don’t really explain much of anything though.
As for my dreams…the day I start dreaming about anything blog-related, I shall kick my own a**. Aar karo kichhu kora lagbena.