Wed 18 Jul 2007
Election Commission’s assignment for Jamaat
Posted by tiktiki under Politics , jamaat-e-islami , political islam , reform
Picture: the survivers
Over the last few days we heard a lot about reforms and we saw informal break ups of LDP, Awami League, BNP and JP. Amazingly, Jamat is completely missing from the picture. Neither they are talking about any of reform, nor their leaders are banned from travelling abroad in spite of having criminal cases on them (unlike some others we know). When Barrister Mainul Hossain was asked about this apparent favourtism, he expressed his ignorance and said he did not know Mr. Mujahid. Now Deshivoice blog exposes an old video of a conference of Islami Chatro Shibir where Barrister Mainul Hossain was present as a special guest sitting not too far from Mr. Mujahid and Delwar Hossain Sayeedi. If these two cases of favourtism and lying on camera was not enough, here is the most troubling news of institutionalizing presence of Jamat-i-Islami in the voter list creation by the election commission.
Election Commission has recently selected Bangladesh Masjid Mission to “be given the responsibility to encourage the people through mosque-based publicity to be enlisted in the voter enrolment with photographs.” Now first of all it may seem innocuous thinking that it is trying to encourage the picture taking of conservative Muslims through this mission. But let’s not make any mistake that this is indeed giving formal power to an organization that lists as its aim:
Making the mosques a living center to Islam to address all sorts of human problems & suffering in light of Masjid-e-Nababi. Even this would not have been so problematic had Bangladesh Masjid Mission wasn’t so close to Jamate Islami. Their website is adorned with pictures of Jamat Amir and former chief of Albadar Al Shams and a collaborator in our liberation war and alleged war criminal Matiur Rahman Nizami.
Here is a picture:
Also, here is another news story of Nijami and Babar using BMM’s platform to say Bangla bhai was a creation of India. If this doesn’t convince you of the link. Consider this — Bangladesh Masjid Mission was founded by one Maulana Alauddin Al Azhari who is brother in law of none other than our very own Golam Azam. The reference is from the Golam Azam’s own website.
Now that’s the kind of news that makes you go hmmmmm…
July 18th, 2007 at 10:55 am
Barrister Shaheb put one of his Chamber Lawyer as PP and got him to move case against brother and got the verdict to implicate Monju on liquor charges. Monju’s fault he won a court case involving genuine editorship of Ittefaq.
July 18th, 2007 at 12:01 pm
“The first job is to drive the fear of Allah into the minds of those who have been involved in corruption, or of those who are potentially corrupt,” the chairman of the Anti-Corruption Commission says.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6293170.stm
Now it explains why fugstar is so fond of this government.
July 18th, 2007 at 1:18 pm
Hmm, this can reaally be a matter of thinking. But probably ec has to make some deal with Masjid mission because of their coverage amoung masjid and on emams.
Still, I believe that this far away for JM to rule our country as people of bangladesh have not forgotten 1971.
(Unless they are again powered by any coalition.)
Mamun
consult-dr-mamun.blogspot.com
July 18th, 2007 at 1:56 pm
hmmmm great post.
If there is one thing that makes me relinquish my support for the CTG, it would not be so much for
* the suspension of basic rights,
* the banning of political activity,
* the selective remand of corrupt politicians,
* the arrest of dynastic overlords (stop squawking back there you neo-liberals and your new-found love of “due-process” - where were you when due process was sacked in underhand deals and the shady commission-mongering of our dearly-departed “democratic” elites that robbed the country of power stations and infrastructure?)
* nor even the appalling non-constitutional nature of their measures but this unholy alliance between Jamaat and the CTG.
The fact that there is an underhand relationship between Barrister Mainul and the Amirs (read war criminals) of Jamaat. Not to mention the undisguiseable stench of a inter-family feud between the Hussain brothers (Mainal and Manju) and the accusations of CIA involvement that simply will not go away.
July 18th, 2007 at 3:49 pm
To my friends,
who are vocal in support of getting the country rid of the two dynastic leaders and instead dream of the rise of a new bunch of pragmatic alternative leadership,
Here are the possible options of the new alternative set of pragmatic rulers..
1. Moezuddin Killer Azam khan, ex-film extra and clown Sadeq Siddiqui who have announced their presence yesrterday by leading rally and sweet distribution in Dhaka to celebrate Hasina incarceration. Govt lodged cases against the AL activists who broke the SOE law by bringing out procession to protest Hasina arrest.
or
2. General A for a short period, followed by a counter coup paving the way for general B and ultimately general C, a reincernation of Ershad.
or
3. Jamaat i islami , led by a new Bangladesh born( ex shibir) leadership. Will there be any difference in organizational strength of an intact Jamaat and BNP (minus Khaleda), BNP (Mannan Bhuiyan), BNP ( Zia) or AL ( Jailed Hasina), AL ( Tofael), AL ( razzak), AL (Suranjit) ?
You guys wanted to get rid of the corrupts ( At the cost of anything including democracy/civil liberty/basic rights). Jamaat’s tag line is ‘Honest Mens rule’. There should not be any problem with Jamaat then.
July 18th, 2007 at 4:25 pm
2)
Not sure what that means. The idea of accountability to God is not the monopoly of one particular party or religion. I am for human beings retaining their sense of what is sacred(trust, dignity, creation, mercy) and wary of people who want to reduce it all to material. arent you?
Mosque based enrollement is a good idea so long as it gets good data and reaches deep into the community. That is unless Mosque goers of a particular flavour do not deserve the vote, and if organisations are to be deemed illegal on account of the people that they admire. Anybody who has tried to do any substantial research on bangladesh will tell you of the real lack of data. Even dates of birth, and probably censuses are fudged.
The idea of ‘an unholy CTG-JI Alliance’ can only emerge from a mind held in a tight orbit around some extremely dense cellestial object. The hurt and upset that so many are feeling now is not anyone else’s fault but the party itself. The anger transferal/envy route is the least productive option.
about the foreigners, one reason why JI might be taken a little more seriously than their raw votage would suggest is that the other two leaders must have been very difficult to engage in any serious and deep discussion. especially around the time of the election feud. thats a signal for the two parties to improve their act, not to drag everyone down to their squabbling level.
Personally id like to beleive that this arrangement was the brainchild of one of our countrymen.tbh we will never know. what we do know is who the dominant international players are and that their actions and whisperings are not covered in much depth by the medias.
July 18th, 2007 at 5:05 pm
Rumi,
The choice is not between democracy or Islam but different flavor of Islam.
The choice Bangladeshis have are:
a) Jammat-ei-Islam
b) BNP-Bangla Bhai Islam
c) AL-Khalifyeat Islam
d) CTG-Islam
I heard more bickering nationally about Dr Younis then against Jamat even in the last few months by so called secularist - Awami League.
BD is fed up holier than thou hollow promise by Awami League. Awami League had there chance, did they arrest Golam Azam, and all the war criminals?
Lets look at Sheikh Hasina’s past
http://www.freedomfightermrr.com/doc/page106.pdf
http://www.freedomfightermrr.com/doc/page99-100.pdf
[admin: before this post turns out to be a rhetoric on war crimes trial or AL or Hasina, want to remind the readers that this thread is about CTG's perceived stand on Jamat and its dual stand and EC's recent decision on having a mosque based NGO, which is a shadow organization of Jamat. The references have been posted. please stay on topic ]
July 18th, 2007 at 5:22 pm
Thanks very nice post
July 18th, 2007 at 5:32 pm
Article mentioned “Jamat is completely missing from the picture”-Are you admitting Jamaat are way to smart to fool every one & lay their conspiracy & criminality. This sort of innuendo proves what? It is a fact that when comes corruption they are the least one. They do have internal process to hold party-important post. Some people still thinks 71 grudges could be a useful tool to continue their mission. This tool is so Yesterday and proved to be an absolutely non-working. Rather, generations who lived and grow up with 71 are knowledgeable enough to know of who did what in 71. They are polite to hear the repeated record of ‘Jamaat leaders & 71’, but knows well this one is one of many political tool used for political gain. If their exist bad of Jamaat’s MPs and their work about of last 5 years, that would people be interested for sake of future governance.
July 18th, 2007 at 5:43 pm
Pls post this in relevant thread.
In a significant development, Khaleda an hour ago has issued a statement condemning Hasina’s arraest, and demanded her immediate release. More to follow.
July 18th, 2007 at 5:47 pm
Dear Rumi
The most realistic outcome is what Allah oops sorry America wants!
Pardon my blasphemous slip (but understandable I hope) given the long association of Army & the beards in Jamaat both in their Bangla & Pakistani periods).
But then we could always appeal as BNP appears to be doing! See story on PR Week!
Former Bangladesh governing party plans US outreach
Ted McKenna
PR Week USA Jul 18 2007 10:29
http://www.prweek.com/us/news/article/672126/Former-Bangladesh-governing-party-plans-US-outreach/
SAN FRANCISCO: The Bangladesh Nationalist Party (BNP) has hired law firm Pillsbury Winthrop Shaw Pittman to manage a range communications intended to promote democratic elections and a democratic government in Bangladesh.
Under a 12-month, $400,000 contract that began on May 30, Pillsbury or companies under its direction may, among other things, lobby members of Congress and their staffs, international institutions, the media and other “concerned persons” in the US or elsewhere, according to a recent filing with the Justice Department.
Work may entail preparation and dissemination or publication of “informational materials”; setting up press conferences, lectures, and speeches; conducting media and advertising campaigns; and more.
Bangladesh’s current military-backed government, which took power in January, has arrested BNP leader Kaleda Zia and other former political leaders on corruption charges and has said it plans to hold elections by the end of 2008.
July 18th, 2007 at 6:59 pm
Thanks for the post on a relevant and timely issue.
It has been long my conviction that the leaders and ruling elites of most modern Muslim nation states and communities have been infused with Western ideas of secular Ethno-linguistic nationalism, mostly in the last three centuries. One could argue if it happened spontaneously or it was planned by Western and other agents, my opinion is that it was a liitle bit of both. This has created a gap between the masses that are left in the somewhat unadulterated form of medieval Islam, with some slight changes here and there with recent attempts at reform. In this gap the “Islamists” have moved in, who are not the best of breed, but sort of 2nd rate leaders compared to the cream of the crop secular elite. The Islamists are not in a position to lead the community, because their ideology, such as JI’s foundation based on Moududi’s ideas are not in line with traditional Hanafi Islam in the sub-continent. Just as the secular elite, they are also disconnected with the masses.
Historical continuity cannot be substituted with alien imposed ideas. The only way out, hope and a duty for our secular elite is to rediscover their historical roots, relearn where they come from, reconnect with the masses and then hope for some real leadership and change. As long as this does not happen, the pretender’s like JI and other Islamists will always operate in the gap, brainwash our gullible young into anti-state and anti-people activity and give opportunity for others who do not wish us well, to intervene, as we cannot manage our own affairs. To lead a people and a community, one really need to understand this people and community and be one with them.
July 18th, 2007 at 7:20 pm
I don’t think CTG people such as Mainul share ideological aims with Jamaat. So obviously the relationship is getting them something. Off the top of my head:
1) Oil monarchies - since someone already brought up foreign connections, JIB might be serving as a the facilitator to their ruling classes and thus their resources. Don’t forget rising oil prices and inflation.
Given the drama surrounding KZ’s exile plan, being on a good understanding with Saudis help on other fronts too.
2) Said this before, will say it again: the CTG isn’t overtly Islamist and don’t want to be labelled “un-Islami”/”inauthentic” at this point.
Other than that, all speculations about military-Jamaat connections remain that in light of the fact that more than 16 years have passed and a new crop of army men have sprung up the ranks.
July 18th, 2007 at 8:06 pm
AsifY
I fully agree with your point #2. But instead of the CTG, I would like to add that the true relationship between the JIB and the Army or if you prefer Moyeen will surface if & when Moyeen takes over power openly by becoming either CMLA or President. And, when & if that happens, only then we will be in a position to judge how Islamist Bangladesh is destined to become in the coming days.
Cheers
July 18th, 2007 at 8:09 pm
Re: #6, Fugstar, Maybe I’m reading it wrong, but I don’t think they’re going to do voter registration in the mosques, but rather, use it as a platform for publicity.
And I don’t think that is such a bad idea. It might make some folks uneasy, but it is a fact that a lot of people go to mosques, specially on Fridays. If it can be used to encourage people to enroll in the list, why not?
This is not to take anything away from the disturbing resurfacings of war criminals and the CTG’s turning a blind eye to the corrupt in the JI fold - in fact, that they are so well entrenched despite their role in ‘71 is doubly disturbing.
Re: #12, khilji, I don’t think the average Bangladeshi who is a Muslim really could tell the difference between Maududi’s ideology and Hanafi teachings even if it hit them in the face. As far as they are concerned, Islam is unadulterated, and in today’s corrupt world, it does provide a refuge - something that the “secular elite” you mention cannot or will not recognise.
Yes, JI’s role in 1971 will never allow them to be the govt. through elections, I don’t think, but it does provide them with a very strong reason to exist. In fact, quite contrary to what you suggest, instead of being “pretenders”, they appeal to a large section of the community because of this niche appeal. They probably understand “the people and the community” better than many of the politicians, definitely the bickering dynastic ilk.
Again, not enough to gain them political majority, not yet anyway, but enough for them to be a force to have to account. And that is also probably why the CTG is working with them.
July 18th, 2007 at 9:43 pm
I’ve said this before and will say so again. Six months after this CTG have been in control, noone knows what their agenda is.
Who hear can say Khaleda Zia will or won’t be arrested.
Whether the CTG will ever let go of power. If so to a reformed BNP or a reformed AL or to an apparently uncorruptable JI.
Was America behind 1/11. Is India involved.
WHO KNOWS
and the reason nobody knows is that this arrogant CTG don’t care about informing the public. It’s as if Bangladesh is their’s to manage and ours not to reason why. When they arrest someone they’re not honest about why the person has actually been detained. It’s government by the secret intelligent services almost.
July 18th, 2007 at 9:47 pm
Millenarian Utopia-cults with their apocalyptic zeal, embodied by JI and their sock-puppets, Khilafat al-Majlis, is rooted in the European post-Enlightenment idea of Progress.
JI are not throwbacks to the decent, respectable politics of the Muslim League, rather they’re the by-product of the bitter failure of pan-Arab unity bastardised in Qutbdian and Maududian ideology, coated in (European) Modernist interpretations of Nation-State and the primacy of materialism.
Fugstar may fondly view them as politicised embodiments of his faithful yearning for the afterlife, but he isn’t the only one to fall for this nonsense. Make no mistake; Jamaat is a political outfit that is interested in power and power alone. And they will do their best to leverage the romantic notion that we all suffer from: that faith is equal to virtue.
July 18th, 2007 at 10:54 pm
Re: #15, Bangali, you are correct that the average Bangladeshi Muslim would not know the difference between Hanafi Majhab and Moududi’s new Islamist Majhab. JI and other Islamists are indeed taking advantage of this ignorance of the masses, but they have not gone that far yet and I believe it is reversible, when people will become more knowledgeable.
You mentioned that JI have a relatively large following. True, but it would not have gotten this far without patronage of Wahhabi oil money.
How did the Wahhabi’s get their hand on this oil, we have to go back a bit in time and see how Pan-Turkism took root in Osman (Ottoman) Imperium and Arab Nationalism started almost as a reaction. Some say British Agents in Istanbul started both movements and had liaison with Ibn Abdul Wahhab. The rest is of course history.
People will call me Jamati or some other stripe of Islam-mad person, but I can use only one word to describe todays situation:
Fitna or division/chaos
- the elite brainwashed to become nationalist/secular and moves away from the pious masses (please look at yourselves in the mirror)
- the “Islamists” promise Islam to the masses and provide clinic, school and jobs and indoctrinate them with corrupted Islam
- the anti-Islam camp identifies “Islamists” corrupted Islam as true Islam and starts its new crusade to defeat Islam
- as most of us, the masses, do not know what exactly is going on and who is doing what, we remain confused and rudderless
We cannot wish away Islam from the minds of 1.5 billion, just as we cannot wish away Hinduism, Buddhism or Christianity, no matter how much some people would like us to - we have to understand its facets well and deal with it effectively and not leave the 2nd rate leaders of Jamat to be its sole claimant and facilitator. So I urge all aspiring future secular leaders to consider these carefully, our personal philosophical bent and preference is one thing, but if we are to lead, we need to know the history of the mind of our people and understand where we should take them in the future, just being honest and not poor is not enough, as Anthony has pointed out.
Islam and Muslims do not need to be anti-West, anti-Zionist, anti-Hindu or anti anything, it is anti injustice and corruption - in a modern world it should evolve and co-exist with all others and Muhammad (SAW) would not have wanted us to be any other way. The responsibility is with the priviledged and the best minds of the Muslim societies to truly become our leaders with our best interest at heart.
Of Democracy, Islam never explicitly condemns it, but the universal suffrage in a poor illiterate country is not the fastest way to improve people’s lot as has been conclusively proven in Singapore, Taiwan, Korea, China and elsewhere.
Just because we are the 4th largest Muslim country, it does not mean that we need to be used as an example to the world to show that Islam and democracy can co-exist, the current and future welfare of our people is more important than being a showcase for “Muslim democracy”. Instead of arguing due process and why we are not a perfect constitutional democracy with perfect record of Western defined human rights, we need to be arguing what is best for the present and future of our people. If democracy and rule of law happens to be the best available option, we should choose it, but if there are better options, we should look at those as well. Pakistan and India are different entities with different history and set of factors affecting them, every case and situation is different and we do not need to follow or avoid their examples.
July 19th, 2007 at 2:49 am
Dear Khilji,
Poor analogy. ‘Allah’ is one word yet naming Prophet Muhammad requires “Muhammad (SAW)”. Reading Quran thoroughly is very much needed before mixing ‘practicing of faith to creator’ with history, prophetism, hanafi, jamati, wahabi, oil etc. “Urging secular leader & Anthony” would be your preferable path, but why should there be a need for a believers to urge a secularist. Have you ever heard a secularist ever preaching for a co-existent of secularist and believers?
July 19th, 2007 at 4:46 am
This is a digression from the main post, but Asaad in #19:
A secular system of government doesn’t necessarily mean that the people living in the state or in the government have no religion. What it does mean is that the government is separated from religion. This has many implications including the idea that the state provides equal rights and benefits to all citizens, regardless of what their religious affiliation, or lack thereof is. Cliched example; even though the USA is probably the most Christian country in the world in terms of the religiousity of its Christian citizens, it is also one of the most secular in that the rights of its non-Christian citizens are protected. It is amazing to find large numbers of religious Muslims that come to America for protection from persecution by their own governments.
So in answer to your question, yes, I have heard of several secularists preaching for co-existence with “believers”, because denial of someone else’s right to believe is not essential for a secular system of governance.
July 19th, 2007 at 5:26 am
Jamaat doesn’t want to win elections. It wants to create its brand of Islamic republic, and its preferred method is a peaceful revolution after critical masses have been built up in key sectors. It was satisfied with its rising influence in all key sectors except the army. And now it seems that this may be changing.
It’s pretty clear why the Jamaat would want the army support. It’s not so obvious why the reverse would be true. I used to think that the regime was primarily interested in an exit strategy. The simplest exit strategy would have been to have a deal with AL. But that obviously hasn’t happened. As AsifY noted in a different thread, perhaps it’s really an entry strategy. And perhaps Jamaat will have a seat alongside Mannan Bhuiyan and the RATS in a government of national unity.
In the meantime, does anyone know much about the recent movements in the army top brass? Why are we all assuming that it is Gen Moeen that is in charge?
July 19th, 2007 at 5:59 am
fugstar,
I was thinking on responding to your latest comment on my Islamism piece down there, but decided that Sid #17 has done it for me here.
The question isn’t whether the Faraizi and Titumir movements were peasant revolutions or Islamist movements. That’s simply trapping us in the secular/Islamism dichotomy, and implies that each category is mutually exclusive.
The question that should be asked is in regard to hegemony. Those two movements were viciously anti-British, the hegemon then. Jamaat has ALWAYS been inclined to jump into bed with the hegemonic power of the day: opposed the creation of Pakistan in ‘47 and opposed the creation of Bangladesh in ‘71. As Sid says, “Jamaat is a political outfit that is interested in power and power alone”. Amen. Please, do be careful in drawing a simple line from Islamism then to Islamism now. My post was almost exclusively about Islamists now.
admin, shouldn’t we try and refrain from personal references to other commenters (such as #2), especially when they’re not even involved in the thread as yet? Genuine question, not rhetorical.
July 19th, 2007 at 8:25 am
Dear Asaad (#19),
If I may ask which analogy are you referring to?
Allah(Subhana Wa Ta’ala) is mentioned with Allah(SWT), but I fail to see why you mention this.
You mention reading of Quran, but you think history of ideas and how they have developed are not important and you are asking why I am talking about all this history. The reason I am doing this is because there is a great confusion about JI and its basic foundational ideology, which is not Islam but Moududism ie Moududi’s interpretation of Islam, I believe not many people are very clear on this. Like JI, other Islamists of most variety are products of deviant ideas that I mentioned and are not in line with mainstream Islam (Shia or Sunni), such as Wahhabism, which is based on ideas of Ibn Abdul Wahhab and his interpretations of Islam. If it was not for oil money from their deviant Wahhabi cousins, JI would have an insignificant place in our political scene.
Now, you may ask who am I to judge if Moududism and Wahhabism are deviant or not, I cannot, but the mainstream 4 Sunni Mazhabs would judge them to be so.
About urging secular leaders, I was trying to point out that our ruling elite has become relatively secular because of westernized secular education and has become disconnected from our non-secular relatively pious masses. This disconnect has made the elite virtually unfit to lead the masses as they do not understand the masses desires any more. And its unfortunate because this disconnected group, which may include most of us blogging here in this forum, can no longer represent the wish and desire of the masses. So either a new elite has to emerge from the religious masses or the secular elite has to go back and reconnect with the masses, if they wish to lead, even if they do not have firm conviction about religion.
I will bring in here the example of Turkey. Kemal Ataturk was a brilliant general and saved the Ottoman nation from annihilation and loss of territory, but he was a product of 50-60 years of Pan-Turkic movement and a fanatic secular leader. His secular legacy is still safeguarded by the army, but the rural religious masses have overcome the imposition of secular ideas by the urban elite on them and now AKP has emerged as their mouthpiece. The two coexist but Turkey is becoming more religious every year.
This brings me to the other point that I mentioned, eliminating corruption and bringing economic well being is only part of the story, it will not by itself solve the problem of deviant ideas, for this a thought leadership of Islamic variety is needed to counter the other corrupted Islamic ideologies. I mentioned Anthony here, because I think I saw in other threads that he mentions the same point that extremism may breed in poverty, but it can also breed in more affluent circumstances, so eliminating poverty is not the only solution for removing extremism. Quite the contrary, a population when it rises above subsistence existence, its value system is asserted with more force and clarity, causing friction with other competing and neighboring value systems, just as it happened in the Balkans and as it is and will continue to happen in the Sub-continent. Hopefully, I have now made myself clear.
The above maybe on or off topic, but JI, CTG, BNP and AL are all trying to cater to the masses religious feelings. This incident of Election Commission selecting Bangladesh Masjid Commission to encourage voter enrollment may be an honest effort to get the word out in any means possible or it may also have the additional dimension of showing a religious bent for CTG, we would never know, as many here have pointed out.
Thanks to Amer for clarifying about secular government protecting freedom of religion. I agree with you that religious freedom, as it is in the US, is a fundamental human rights issue, which Muslims are suffering from in many majority muslim countries under secular dictators. Just yesterday I have heard from a Tajik friend that in Tajikistan, Ajan’s from Masjid’s are not allowed. This Rakhmanov character was apparently a simple agriculture graduate working in a farm, but now he is the secular vanguard, with support from US, EU, Russia and China. My friend told me that everyone there is quite mad with him, but there is not much they can do under police repression and he exclaimed that all big powers somehow seems very much afraid of Islam.
As Jyoti says above, that CTG may now have influence of JI, it would be very sad if that happens and we would all be responsible for this, for not working and coming up with a viable alternative group, not necessarily a political party, which can compete with JI, in matters of Islamic thought leadership and in charitable and social work, which is funded from our own in-country national Zakat fund.
July 19th, 2007 at 4:59 pm
Khilji,
“
average Bangladeshi Muslim would not know the difference between Hanafi Majhab and Moududi’s new Islamist Majhab.
“
If I may assume, you implied Hanafi is the one belivers should practice over Moududi! Should this even be an issue for believers? I am questioning both ‘ism’, hence mention of reading Quran to get guidance regarding isms.
No major disagreement on how history folded on Islamic world. In last hundreds year, ‘interpretation umbrella’ people made & gathered under, and making each of their umbrella better then other is where my heart burn is. Neither am I nullifying Hanafi or Moududy ‘like’ interpreters. If not them, some one else would go through ever evolving critical expression of human existence, in their case with Islam. I have no clue what were the intention of Hanafi and Moududi regarding “hanafism” and “moududiism”, but surely ‘old is gold’, ‘tendency of dietification’&‘surrounding politics’ all colluded in to many ‘ism’ today, thus continuation of sects and division, and considerable amount of time Muslim spent making or ‘understanding’ sense of their ‘sects’ or ‘division’.
Your analogy, simply a continuation of understanding of ‘sects’ and ‘division’. You are also providing historical events, thus implying a direction of which way mass should proceed. Do not get me wrong as I have no clue on how believers should all stay together, EXCEPT all belivers can look to the root of thier faith and hence my mention of reading Quran thoroughly. Discussion regarding that is not in the realm of this topic.
Topic of article is about Jamatis and their involvement in BD politics. Jamatis were before 71 and after 71 were able to re-form their umbrella and were able to convince block of people to think alike. This is not a conspiracy, not Moududism, not discarding Hanfism (if they believe in such ism) or Pakistanism. Belief that Jamaatis will harm public in future is a pre-emptive tool used by a block of public consist of secularist and other isms. Using this tool is understood as Jamaat themselves use their own tool. Eventually, who will play significant role in BD in coming years is yet to see. But if fair comparison is drawn, Jamaatis at least scoring better than other parties. That is NOT because people lack differences between Moudidism, Hanfism or a ‘fundamentalist wnaabees’.
“La ilaha ill Allah” has no SWT. SWT and SWA is not an issue of faith. It is equally comforting to call Creator with one word “Allah” and not feel guilty, yet some ismist would make a major issue calling Prophet Muhammad with out adding SWA. This ‘tiny’ saying when added in numbers is recipes of sects and isms.
I only meant discussion, no disregard to you.
July 19th, 2007 at 5:55 pm
Oh Lord folks ehre really need a ‘History of Islamic thought 101′ this in embarassing.
Hanafi, Shafi, Hanbali, Maliki, Ibadi, Zaidi and Jafari are schools of jurisprudence. NOT political parties, movements, ideologies or cults. Its not a problem if you know the area, just as in any other legal tradition.
Maulana Moududi was a hanafi, like most subcontinentals(check out the asr timing). Individual Muslims are not the sole property of the groups that come after them, neither are their thought required to be 100% relevant over all time and space.
His tafsir of the quran is treasured(in bangla tranlsation) by many non jamati people that i have come across. Whats more he hanafi legal school developed differently in Ottoman Empire than it did in India.
The intellectual heritage of 1400 years would be foolish to dunk in favour of some simplistic formula, whether its the duff ‘moudoodism’ jibe, something more sinister or the simple ‘yeye its all in the quran, no need to do anything other than read western liberalism into it’
July 20th, 2007 at 2:24 am
khilji:
I appreciate your thoughtful, broad-minded comments. There is a need for a liberal Islamic Democracy just as there has been, in Europe, the benefit of a liberal Christian Democracy. The only problem is the lack of a comprehensive body of Ijtihad, which would reign in the more salacious forms of Shariah exegesis (stoning of adulterers, the limb-amputations, the promotion of rape etc).
So where do we find a framework for implementing a liberal democracy informed by religion with full separation of the components. It’s certainly not forthcoming from Al-Azhar or other the Salafis of Saudi Arabia or any other institution.
The mendacious politics of the Maududists of Jamaati Islami simply does not fit the requirements. Because if they were to come to power, we can expect all the usual bugbears of full blown Islamist politics:
* Social subjugation of women
* Repression of the rights of religious minorities
* Trashing the already weakened constitution
* More Shariah Law!
Fugstar:
Just a reminder, Maulana Maududi was also involved with the first state-sponsored massacre of the Ahmadiyya people which resulted in the murder of over 2000 people in the Punjab in 1953. Wa’astagh fir’allah!
July 20th, 2007 at 5:21 am
Dear all,
I do belong to no groups what you are in. I’m a long-years observer of Bangladeshi politics wherever I’m in, the then East Pakistan, Bangladesh or abroad.
I’m neither a Jamati nor a fundamentalist, religious or secular. I’m an ordinary Muslim; neither an orthodox nor patabahari/Waristh Suthre/Namkawaaste Muslim. I can’t claim myself a fully informed but well-informed muslim.
Our fellow brothers who are addicted to bring up the issue enemies of independence/albadar/rajaaker every time they do it simply they don’t love Islam and they don’t Islam a living religion and don’t want it does have influence in our domestic, collective and national lives or state affairs.
Jamat bashing, from my long observation I can very assertively say, roots from aversion in Islam and over affectation and affliction by materialistic secularist world culture.
Of the die-heart jamat bashing intellectuals AGC, I should say, is the top ranking one. Opposing jamat has nothing to do with it’s role in 1971 and it will become clear from the following comment of AGC, once he said in one article that…he[AGC] suggested Late Sheik Mujib in late 60’s that Jamati Islam Party should not be given any chance in East Pakistan to get any place and flourish becuase this is the only idealistic Islamic cadre organzation. And he also suggested Sheik Mujib with his party Awmai League should prevent coming of Moududi to East Pakistan and any public meeting in Dacca by Moududi be disrupted by any means…From this type of comment by AGC, doesn’t it suffice to prove that Jamat bashing is not linked to it’s role in 1971. Moreover, though Jamat was an organized organization at that time, it was not the major anti-liberatin force in 1971. Rather, Muslim league and the beneficiary of Ayub-Monem long-regime, the
Razakers-Shanit Bahinis were the main anti-liberation force. But as those Muslim leagures didn’t have any strong islamic affiliation but power, position and pecunary gains they became insignificant post-liberatin or post-75 Bangladeshi politics.
Now, my secularist freinds no longer bother about the erstwhile Muslim-league Razakers and Shanti bahinis. They wouldn’t even mind to make their kinship those Muslim leaguers or even they might brag their Khandani Affiliation with Muslim league Ministers/MPs/chairmenship connection.
But Jamat is nightmare to them as they are potential islamic force in Bangladesh. Roiling the jamat’s role in 1971 is aimed at isolating them from electoral general mass through purported propaganda.
In case, Jamati Islami flops in Bangladeshi politics, and some other Islam branded party emerges with full potential and vigor the same propaganda will continue. This propaganda is not specific against Jamati Islami rather any potetial Islamic party. The glaring example is the author’s attempt in the currnt thread to find link between Jamat and Masid Mission as they were desperate to connect JMB with Jamat.
What I said is my opinion as objective observer and ordinary but proud muslim without any party affiliation.
Thanks.
July 20th, 2007 at 5:41 am
Thank you tiktiki especially for the top duo-photograph. Don’t they look like twin epecially the attire, the panjabi, cap and the beard?
A pakistani twin?
A pious twin?
A collaborator twin?
A crimial twin?
A passionate politico-islmic twin?
A whatever it’s ? a pseudo-twin.
July 20th, 2007 at 7:07 am
fugstar in #25, thanks for enlightening us about Islamic jurisprudence. By saying that Moududi was a Hanafi,hopefully you are not supporting his ideas, he was no doubt born a Hanafi, but whether he remained one after all that he did, I am not so sure. I will provide here a bunch of links for interested readers to go through and there are tons of other links if one does a search on the web. The impression I have of him is that he was not a real Ulema with a deep knowledge of Islam, but had a vision of kind of a fascist Islamic Utopia and it was his lifelong project to make it a reality starting with Pakistan. Many people think of him as one of the first theoretician of modern “Islamism”, whereas the traditional Ulema think that he caused fitna, with his own pseudo-islamic heretic ideas that he wanted to pass off as sound Islamic ideas. By founding Jamaat he definitely caused the death of many innocent victims, Ahmadiyaa’s in then West Pakistan in 1953 (as Sid has pointed out in #26) and students/intellectuals in then East Pakistan in 1971. And by inspiring Hassan Al Banna and Qutb, he probably had some contribution in the intractable situation in Muslim societies and in the wider world that we are going through now, but may be we should not be so hard on him, if it was not him, maybe somebody else might have done it. But sometimes individuals do change course of history and I think he qualifies as one such individual. He also has too much blood in his hands and so does JI, no matter how much they try to hide these from current generations. If the founder was like this and later actions proved the organizations character, then I must say most followers do not know well their own organization, if people knew, they would cease to be followers. In Bangladesh there is no alternative Islamic oriented party that can match JI’s organizational strength, so people mistake this party as the party that represent Islamic way of life. Nothing could be farther from the truth. An organization based on a fundamentally unsound and problematic idea predictably created problems and continue to do so, again with the help of resources from the other problematic sources.
http://www.sunnah.org/history/Innovators/mawdudi.htm
http://www.sunnah.org/history/Innovators/mawdudi2.htm
http://www.alinaam.org.za/library/maududi.htm
http://www.alinaam.org.za/library/mawd-history.htm
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3996
http://www.geocities.com/~abdulwahid/muslimarticles/mawdudi1.html
http://www.geocities.com/~abdulwahid/muslimarticles/
(read the above with some grain of salt
http://www.thepakistanis.com/about/get/personalities/religious-figures/maulana-maududi.htm
From: http://www.bookrags.com/Sayyid_Abul_Ala_Maududi
[Dr. Haider Maudoodi, the son of Maulana Maudoodi, has openly denounced the actions of Jamaati Islami, the very same Jamaat his father formed and a Jamaat that is following his example to the letter. He stated in The Nation on 1/27/99 that his father would not allow his children to go near Jihad, but would sell this idea to millions of others; he would never allow any of his children to read any of his 80 books. While Jamaati Islami was encouraging an uprising by Kashmiri’s against the Indian occupation, Haider Maudoodi stated, “Islam does not allow them taking up arms against the State” and praised Pakistani’s for not allowing religious extremists like Jamaati Islami members from attaining many seats in the National Assembly of Pakistan. “My father though he could only use the people who came to him. But in his old age, he did get a taste of his medicine. When he was on his deathbed, these Maulana’s treated him as dirt.”]
Sid in #26, thanks for your kind words. The solution I beieve is applying some our best minds for this purpose, instead of all of us coming to America, EU, Australia and NZ and becoming engineers, doctors and investment bankers just for a few bucks and for this so called good secure life - a few of us will need to go to Al-Azhar and learn arabic well. We cannot leave this leadership business for people like Moududi and his followers, it is far too important, not just for our future, but for a lot of other people, as is becoming clear from the current situation in the world today.
July 20th, 2007 at 10:49 am
I would like the CTG (when they gear up for the long-promised electoral reforms) to ban all books by Maududi that advocate religious supremacism. In particular this pernicious piece of garbage should be on top of the list.
Furthermore, of great benefit would be the implementation of a tax reform whereby all money that is remitted to political parties and/or politicians from foreign sources to be levied with a duty of 70%. This should effectively deal with (and hopefully shrink) the funding that wings its way from the Salafi sources in Saudi Arabia that finds its way into the coffers of Jamaati Islami.
July 20th, 2007 at 1:18 pm
#25:
Professor fugstar,
Is “History of Islamic thought 101” a prerequisite for “After Life 101”? Would correspondence of ‘After-life-101’ inquire about 1400 years of “Intellectual” Heritage or what ‘Majhab’ I belong to?
Khilji’s wrote ‘Jamaat following Moududy Mazhab’ & ‘believers should follow one or other’. I discussed on those two points. I am trying to avoid move away from topic issue, which is Jamaat & BD politics and its whereabouts.
In my opinion Jamaat is similar to any other political entities that are able to keep inner party corruption in low level and while working as a government employee, did well if compared to other party employees. Pulling ‘beard’, ‘71’, ‘pakistanism’ is ineffective means to discourage people of not voting them. Jamaat became politically savvy and have learned to encounter these negative brands. Jamaat is also effective keeping Anti India interest/sentiment. It is also playing significant role in BD in its capacity, and is a major player in swinging total # of parliamentary seats.
July 20th, 2007 at 1:41 pm
^^mymy thats a very progressive literary stance. I havent read the book, but i think the Late Maulana Abul Hasan Ali Nadwi’s book deals with the theological side quite well. It was an issue he didnt want to touch with a barge pole, but the people really wanted to know.
More interestingly Mr Bakhtiyar eddin khilji said
“The solution I beieve is applying some our best minds for this purpose, instead of all of us coming to America, EU, Australia and NZ and becoming engineers, doctors and investment bankers just for a few bucks and for this so called good secure life - a few of us will need to go to Al-Azhar and learn arabic well.”
I so so so agree, but thats not enough. Al azhar isnt cutting edge any longer. Bangladesh, other than a few of the Alia Madrassas birthed itself in an environment lacking in religious educational institutions like alighar, deoband, nadwa and osmani. Send them everywhere!
We need the cutting edge, and for that all the disciplines need effort, support and interlinking. Such initiatives have been embarked upon in the far past and the near past. It is out of them that you can get your political parties and schools of thought and intelligensia.
The secularist block, im afraid to its disgrace, has done its best to cut the legs of initiatives like this in desh, the country is paying the price and future generations will too. There needs to be some kinda cultural MoU methinks(call it MAN - Mutually assured nurturement) and a reclamation of the memory and legacy of past brain boxes (not just poets).
Just Arabic?
No! disciplines specially religious and social ones. People who learn for their belly or their status’s sake (or for a stop jamat campaigns sake!) are not going to be terribly useful in that pursuit. Please encourage good students to be more adventerous.
You might like to see how this institution is coming along over to the east http://www.iiu.edu.my/iimu/
July 20th, 2007 at 2:20 pm
Here is a proposal that has been made to Muslims living in the West and benefiting from the liberal, open and democratic societies here. In repeating this statement, it’s amazing how efficacious it is of the Liberal Democratic project in Bangladesh:
In brief, I think that the way forward might be as follows:
1. Developing and then advocating - loudly - a clear theoretical basis, idealy backed by a body of respected scholarship, which lays the theological framework for a wholly and strongly liberal democratic Islamic politics: akin to Christian Democracy or Christian Socialism.
The message needs to be spread: not simply on blogs and the comment pages of low circulation newspapers, but on television channels like the Islam Channel and Al Jazeera, and in places of worship and other communal spaces.
This is, after all, what the Muslim Brotherhood and Hizb ut Tahrir have been doing to spread their own theocratic and totalitarian vision.
This is the most important task. There is much work to be done in this area: but it is a priority, because the dominant forces in Middle Eastern politics are neither liberal nor democratic.
2. Calling, clearly, for the reform of the whole of the Middle East in accordance with liberal democratic principles.
3. Refusing to stand with, and openly criticising, political movements whose conduct offends against the principles of liberal democracy, or which are fundamentally anti-democratic and illiberal.
July 20th, 2007 at 2:58 pm
Interesting that the bloggers are arguing about the inclusion of Mosque to “be given the responsibility to encourage the people through mosque-based publicity to be enlisted in the voter enrolment with photographs.” Mosques do play an important role in peoples lives but whether this can be used to give leverage to the voter listing process is a debate i will leave out for the time being.
But who goes to Mosques? Muslims of course and in Bangladesh predominantly Muslim males. Doesn’t that leave out a huge population out of the Mosque based propaganda? How about women comprising more than half the population? How about Churches, Pagodas, Mondirs, etc.?
when we talk about the importance of religion in the lives of the population we seem to argue for a single and unique formula (in this case Mosque based activities), as if that represents and applies to all. The EC obviously did not think about it. I wonder what kind of voter list they have in mind.
Shohana
July 20th, 2007 at 3:08 pm
mymy thats a very progressive literary stance
I would call for the banning of books that advocate racial supremacism as well. You would call that non-progressive too? Notice how Qurans printed in the subcontinent are banned/burned in Saudi Arabia. And probably your beloved Maududi tafsie as well. Gotta love those salafis
July 20th, 2007 at 6:31 pm
I wonder why anyone would think it a good idea to make a religious institution an arm of the government, especially on an issue as important as election roles. The argument that people go to mosques and therefore that is a good place to get the word out is myopic. People also go to the bazaar, to the bank, to the school house, etc.
It seems to me that tying religion to government is what ultimately led to genocide in Bangladesh in 1971. One measure of progress in a society is how it protects the rights of the minorities. Given Bangladesh’s history, why would anyone think using religious institutions to further state policy is a step forward?
Bangladeshis, Muslims, Hindus, Christians and others, need to be free to practice their religions without government interference. A secular government guarantees religious freedom, whereas a relgious government has the reverse effect. Examples are plenty all over the world - but one need not look any further than Bangladesh’s own history.
July 21st, 2007 at 12:28 pm
Allah guards the just government, even if it is a government of non-Muslims, and destroys the tyrant government, even if it is the government of Muslims.
-Imam ibn Taimiyah
July 21st, 2007 at 5:46 pm
Ibn taymiya also described the Islamic state of a society as the status or the hearts of the people. The problem with the State issue is that people deprived of collective pride take the closest thing ..’british empire’ and replace the british with islamic and hope for the best.
its not a fascist urge, its an urge for success beneath the rhetoric… its symbolic rhetoric. the ht converts dont want a namby pamby country, they want institutionalisation, strength and the admire discipline, and they find that absent from the present discourse and social condition.
mash,
A have to disagree with the reasoning that its bringin ‘religion’ into governance that got us into this mess.
As a human being i think its a deadly mixture of foolishness in politics and foolishness in religion.
Im sure the govt will be seeking partnership with the markets, mandirs, and schools in spreading awareness of its electoral schemes and processes, its not aneither or condition.
Every friday Muslims hear a lecture on issues that include social and administrative virtues. it would be negligent to be blind to this.
July 22nd, 2007 at 4:57 am
Asaad #24:
I agree that isms and sects are not important, in an ideal world believers should follow one undivided and unadulterated Islam, but the fact remains that historically Hanafi is the oldest and the largest of the four Mazhabs and is the strongest pillar of Ahlus Sunnah Wal Jama’a and it still regulates many daily practices for half or more of the Muslim world. It is not comparable to recent attempts at innovations created by Moududi which is followed by JI as Moududi’s ideas only cover certain limited sphere’s such as politics, state and how to gain state power etc., it is not a set of comprehensive jurisprudence.
I understand the importance of JI because of its electoral strength in BD, but I think it should be clear that I am not attacking JI, because of it, as the secularists and others are. I think JI has fooled people into believing that it is a mainstream Islamic party since there is none in the political scene of BD (as far as I know) and as and when a real challenger can be presented which would expose JI for what it is, either it would have to give up Moududi’s ideas or it will be promptly deserted by most followers who would love to flock to the genuine Islamic camp. Reforming it internally and distancing it from Moududi and other JI parties of the sub-continent would be another option, but I do not think its feasible. Starting with a clean slate would be much easier. The potentials are huge, we could denounce extremism and spread the message of pro-trade, pro-business, pro-development and pro-minority-rights from this genuine Islamic platform and encourage similar movement in the sub-continent and other Islamic communities and countries. But to be successful, it should be a spontaneous self financed people’s effort, any non-muslim outside interference would ruin it from the start.
Sid #26:
There are some efforts in Fiqh discussions at global level, such as this one sponsored by OIC:
http://www.fiqhacademy.org.sa/
But its only in arabic for now, English and French versions will be coming up soon. I doubt, however, to what extent they will oppose JI, Wahhabi and other innovations, since OIC funding mostly comes from Saudi Arabia and the head office is located in Jeddah. But its a good start as a global platform for fiqh discussions and it has future potential to resolve some of these issues of recent innovations and corruptions of Islam from a global credible authority.
http://www.iiu.edu.my/iimu/
as fugstar has mentioned is another institution that could be useful for this purpose.
Secular humanism is a dead horse, there is religious revival everywhere, I think liberal Islamic, Hindu and Buddhist parties are needed in Asian countries, but one thing we cannot do with is evangelical interference:
http://www.joshuaproject.net/
I think taking advantage of people’s poverty and ignorance and leading them away from their ancestral faith, tradition, culture is criminal - Filipinos are an unfortunate victim and Koreans will pay for it in the future.
About Ahmadi’s and Qadiani’s, as minorities their rights should be protected, but their status as Muslims could be decided by global forums and authorities, as mentioned above, where they will have a chance to fight their case.
Bitterboy #27:
Your point is appreciated, there are always enemy’s of Islam everywhere, as it is much feared, but JI is the wrong vehicle to advance the cause of Islam, as I am taking pains to explain in these posts, mainly because of its various shortcomings I have pointed out.
Asaad #25:
I understand their efficiency, organization, less corruption etc. and their power as a vote bank and king maker utilizing anti-India card, but that does not make them legitimate in representing real Islam, they are essentially an impostor playing with the religious feelings of the masses.
Fugstar #35:
I agree with you, I said Arabic but I meant that we need to arm ourselves with Islamic knowledge in all disciplines in addition to the modern western education, so fake people like JI cannot dominate the field. Our secular elite are British and Western slaves, note how Gandhi and Badshah Khan were religious and Jinnah and Neheru that created the mess of partition were secular. It is amazing how we could not follow through their examples in the sub-continent. I also support liberal Hindu and Buddhist parties in Bangladesh, India and other Asian countries, so they can advance the cause of their ancestral religion, tradition and culture and fight the militant extremist outfits such as Hindutva, RSS, JI etc.
Sid #33:
I agree with the spirit of your post, but I would not emphasize these as liberal democratic movement (as it implies following the West), I would rather stress them as genuine, traditional, authentic and spontaneous religious movements, rising from the people themselves, that would work for the welfare of the people. By default they would have to chose some form of democratic method, since all world religions in their pure unadulterated form are pro-people.
Shohana #34:
I note your frustration, but rest assure that Islam is not opposed to Female emancipation and empowerment, Females do go to mosques in many countries, specially Western countries and the situation will change in ours with socio-economic improvement. I agree that Churches, Pagodas and Mondirs should be included in this campaign.
Mash #36:
The form of government should be decided by people, and in a democracy like ours, by the majority. A government can be officially religion neutral, but not secular atheistic, and there can be parties that advance the cause of their own religious constituent and win seats in the Parliament. Religion should not be suppressed, peoples religious rights have to be protected as long as it does not infringe on other minority rights. If there is any conflict with Islamic jurisprudence issues, it should be dealt with in the International Fiqh academy.
Lets learn the rich traditions of our religions, be it Islam, Sanatan Dharma or Buddhism and embrace them in all spheres of our life, lets not be afraid of them. We can co-exist and live with each other, if we can really inspire ourselves with the true spirits of our religions and not run away from them to fall in the clutches of so called secular humanistic atheism, which is nothing but a form of denial of the true state of our existing collective mind and societies.
July 22nd, 2007 at 2:20 pm
Khilji,
You say:
Then you go on to say:
I am not sure what a “secular atheistic” government is, and how it is different from a “religion neutral” government. Please help me with the distinction, and how it relates to real-world examples so that we are not tilting at windmills.
I am also not clear how keeping government power separate from religion is to “run away” from religion and how it is “a form of denial of the true state of our existing collective mind and societies.”
Protecting people’s religious rights requires government to stay away from legislating or practicing religion. It is a fairly basic point, and religious minorities the world over understand this point all to well. Ahmediyyas and Hindus in Bangladesh also have a long history in Bangladesh and South Asia of facing the brunt of state power in the name of religion.
Finally a point about democracy. Democracy is not the same as mob rule. A robust democracy protects the rights of minorities from what is known as the “tyranny of the majority.” In a democracy, the whims of the majority are always countered by the guarantee of fundamental rights to all citizens. Usually those rights are embodied in a democracy’s constitution, as they are in the Bangladeshi constitution. It is those rights that act as a firewall against mob sentiments and the whims of the day - and in the case of religious nuttery, against religious persecution. A robust democracy gives those rights to the citizen and prevents the government, with its immense power, from taking them away. Since 1/11/2007, those fundamental rights that protect the minority against the tyranny of the majority have been suspended in Bangladesh.
If you believe in democracy, as your comment suggests you do, you should be really concerned.
July 22nd, 2007 at 8:54 pm
The caption under the picture of the bearded troglodytes ought to be “would you trust your child with these men?”
July 22nd, 2007 at 9:13 pm
Mash in #40:
Democracy and its definition are varied, a simple definition is majority rule, but the issues of “mob rule”, “tyranny of the majority” and “majoritarianism” remains hotly debated about democracy, since any safeguard in the constitution can be amended by an overwhelming majority, these are the inherent weaknesses in the concept of democracy.
Bangladesh constitution had secularism as one of the principles at the beginning, but in 1977 it was replaced with:
“absolute trust and faith in the Almighty Allah”
http://www.pmo.gov.bd/constitution/
For a detailed report on how the constitution and the state has changed from initial secular start to a more Islamised form, please read:
http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0199-4602307/Traditional-institutions-as-tools-of.html
The article was written for a Western audience to feed the impression that Bangladesh is moving towards Islamism and as such I do not agree with its tone and conclusions, but it has a comprehensive list of the changes that took place. In my opinion, it is a logical and expected phenomenon with a country that has 88.3 percent Muslim population asserting their faith, religion and culture in all aspects of their state, including their constitution. Why we cannot be like the USA is a good question, a simple answer would be that the USA was founded on the basis of freedom of religion where many early European/English settlers were escaping religious persecution of European Monarchies, where most of these European countries had and still have an established state religion. We have a different history and future as a continuation of that historical progression, starting from being wholly Buddhist and animist in Pala era, with attempted imposition of Hinduism in Sena era and then Islamization, under, Turkic, Afghan and Mughal regimes.
Like Bangladesh, most countries in the world have a state religion. The only countries that do not are:
* Australia
* Azerbaijan
* Canada
* Chile
* People’s Republic of China
* Colombia
* France
* India
* Republic of Ireland
* Japan (Shinto until end of WWII)
* Nepal (State religion abolished)
* New Zealand
* Nigeria
* Philippines
* Romania
* Singapore
* South Africa
* South Korea
* Turkey
* United States
There are constitutional safeguard for minority rights in Bangladesh constitution as you mentioned and the real question is how well it is done in practice and can be improved in the future. I do not think oppression of minorities by rogue elements of society is any more under CTG than under previous governments, if anything the rule of law situation has improved under CTG.
The CTG has been deemed by many to be operating outside constitution, I am not an expert on these issues, and I will not try to become one overnight, but as a layman it seems to me that the welfare of the people is paramount and the constitution itself is formulated for this purpose and not the other way around. So if CTG is doing something good for the greater benefit of the country at the risk of being persecuted by future political regimes, then there should some way to safeguard them from this situation and it is our duty as sensible observers to support their effort to save their own skin, by changing the constitution, within due process, after a new government is elected and a parliament is in place. If this includes giving the armed forces a role like the Turkish army then we should have no problem with this, noting that Turkish Army frequently intervenes to protect fanatically secular Kemalism, in our case Kemalism would be replaced by “Chaos and Corruption”. And this should be a welcome change as we do not want our economy derailed by childish politicians and their whims.
All humans are created equal, is a catchy phrase, a more appropriate one would be that all humans have the potential to do well. The fact is that in the current socio-economic evolutionary ladder different groups of people in the world are at different stages and different rules apply for them, and added to this complexity is different history, culture and religion. So every country and community is different and has uniques solutions to their problems, generalized theories are good for understanding concepts, but solutions must be unique in the spirit of scientific trial and error to see what works best in a given situation, and these trials should be from indigenous efforts, not imposed or dictated from outside.
July 23rd, 2007 at 4:08 am
Khilji, I look forward to learning who it is that is “hotly debating” the definition of democracy. In my experience I have found this “debate” exists only in autocratic or dictatorial circles. I’ve heard terms like “guided democracy” bandied around, but again these words seem to come from the mouths of military men wielding absolute power.
You also are rather cavalier with the Constitution when you say:
The Constitution does not exist to “save the skin” of those who choose to rule extra-constitutionally simply because they, the unelected they who come to power at the barrel of a gun, decide that they know what is best for the country. This kind of thinking, that is the “historical necessity” doctrine (much loved by military dictators in Pakistan and Bangladesh), was the rationale given in 1975.
I do not share your enthusiasm for the Turkish model. I do realize how the notion of a benovelant military guiding the republic might appeal to some, but I have faith that Bangladeshis take citizenship a bit more seriously than that to abdicate the right to govern ourselves and simply hand it over to “big brother”.
July 23rd, 2007 at 6:28 am
Mash, if I may ask, would you care to disclose your background, because before I proceed further, I am curious to know who I am debating with, specially in regards to what real life experience you have inside or outside Bangladesh that qualifies you to make these comments. I will disclose my experience here in detail so that its fair for the readers who can have some idea about where these arguments are coming from other than having to judge their merits just based on the words on this blog. Please do not mention specifics such as your name etc., there is no need to compromise your privacy and anonymity.
I can tell you this much that I have never done politics and I was never in the army and I come from a circle where most people consider politics to be too dirty to get involved. I was born and brought up in Bangladesh and I have spent significant years doing business there.
Whether barrel of a gun is a good thing or not in the earlier situations and now, the people of the country are good judges of that, not you or I. Lets not forget that these people in the army are also concerned citizens of Bangladesh, and at least this CTG is not doing all that they are doing for monetary gains, but out of concern for the future of our country and people (at great personal risks to themselves in future, if I may add), at least that is how it seems to the majority in Bangladesh. Its possible that they can make mistakes, but these are honest mistakes, because they are not perfect, this is a new situation for them and they have not been trained for this kind of work.
But I am well aware of people who get excited about constitution and due process, but have nothing to say (I am not saying you are one of them) when these two imbecile Begums have played with the well being and future of 150.5 million people for 16 long years in the name of democracy, where in parts of the country there are many who still cannot get enough to eat. To these perpetually hungry people, such esoteric ideas as democracy, constitution and human rights mean nothing, except getting some Bidi and maybe some lunch on election day once every 5 years to sell their vote to the highest bidder, who has the money to buy their vote. To them all this democracy stuff is a grand circus with Netas and Netris shouting at the top of their God-gifted voice in concocted meetings, trumped up michils and made up hartals. Sometimes its good, because they get paid for attendance in these meetings and michils. The goons of course make a good amount during the jalao porao hartals. And once the election is over, if you are the winner, it is time to share the loot among all the motor cycle bahini’s with tenders in different govt. departments and the big deals and percentages are of course reserved for the ministers and powers that be. The losing side of course goes back to the street for more of the same. We, together with our silent masses have seen this circus for the last 16 years, so we know very well what this democracy and constitution has given us. Obviously the existing system (the constitution as the machine and the politicians as the operators of this machine, if you will) was not working. Still we have not lost hope, CTG has promised that we will get democracy back, but this time it should be a democracy where people in politics are there to serve and not steal, as is the hope of our 150.5 million people.
July 23rd, 2007 at 4:19 pm
khilji, I understand and agree partly with what you’re saying, except those that are self-contradictory.
“Secular Humanism is a dead horse”, I agree but “Secular Democracy” isn’t. In fact it’s very much alive and kicking in Bangladesh, believe it or not. And no amount of alarmist screeching that the CTG signifies a death-knell to the Liberal Democratic Project in Bangladesh should be accepted without a large, dismissive guffaw.
Liberal Democracy (LD) can and will be able to accomodate the Islamic system of law within limits because LDs are by nature, pluralist and secular. I’m not so sure Islamic Systems are ready to accept Universal Human Rights, elevation of the rights of women and minorities, secularism, homosexuality, the banning of slavery. The list goes on and on. This is because Islamic legal systems are based on their own sense of paramount superiority over all other systems and obliges its adherents to accept its infallibility. This unconditional acceptance however, is not expected of those who live and adher to a Secular Democratic system.
As a Muslim country, I reject categorically the need for Bangladesh to pay allegiance to an “International Fiqh System”, especially, as your link shows, one that is only written exclusively in Arabic! It’s high time we Bangladeshis dropped the false deference towards Arab States (particularly Saudi Arabia) which, apart from being morally and theocratically corrupt by the Quran’s own standards, regard Muslim South Asians as “untermenschen”. We MUST not pay false loyalty to a Saudi System of fiqh because even Islamists understand that a Saudi Fiqh system is geared towards keeping the Saudi status quo.
If there is to be a system of fiqh and ijtihad for Muslim law in Bangladesh, it must be developed by Bangladeshis for Bangladeshis for the social and legal framework in Bangldesh. Furthermore, these laws must comply with existing judicial institutions in Bangladesh. In other words, if we are to develop an Islamic Democracy in Bangladesh, it must be done within Bangladeshi existing legal parameters and within the framework of a Bangladeshi secular liberal democracy.
We must understand Universal Human Rights contain a subset of essential basic rights that Bangladesh must honour without condition. The good news is that these are already enshrined in the Constitution. All Islamic laws which transgress these rights are automatically overridden.
And they already are: Many Islamic laws are by nature overridden informally. For the purposes of illustration take the example of a man who has three children - two eleder daughters and a youngest son. When he dies, his property is divided, by Islamic Law, so that the son gets half, then the daughters get half of their third. The result is that the son gets 66% and the daughters share the remaining 33% between them. This is because daughters only have right to half a son’s share. However, Bangladeshis, especially nowadays, rarely follow the Islamic law and will the route that is the only moral fair way: by sharing everything down the middle.
Now, if people are transgressing Islamic Law in this manner already, doesn’t that mean large parts of Islamic Law are irrelevant from the outset? If we wish to repair this state of affairs we must look towards Ijtihad, but unfortunately, the Islamic authorities haven’t yet been able to understand that their systems are unworkable in the modern world and they have retreated into a defensive and uncooperative seige mentality.
July 23rd, 2007 at 4:31 pm
Khilji at #44, the “detail” you provided in your second paragraph tells me very little about your “qualifications”.
Here is my qualification: I am a Bangladeshi with a voice.
You say:
Who are these “people” and how do they judge? And why don’t you or I get our due votes on this - aren’t we the members of this “people” group? If I recall correctly, the people of Bangladesh passed judgment on this issue in 1971 and then again in 1990-1991 - the former at the cost of millions of lives and the latter at the cost of 16 long years. Is that the kind of judgment you anticipate this time? I say it would be better to nip it in the bud this time, dont you?
Also, how do you know that the intentions of this military is as benign as you suggest? How does a military government that takes power at the barrel of a gun, that sustains power by suppressing dissent and suspending fundamental rights, know what is in the best interests of the country? Who holds them accountable?
Forgive me, but there is good reason to get “excited” about the constitution and due process. It is lack of respect for these important matters that causes these upheavals and the steady decay of government that we have witnessed in Bangladesh. The recipe for fixing these problems is not to further toss out these concepts.
What of the “perpetually hungry people”, as you put it. But in my experience democracy, constitution or human rights are not “esoteric” concepts that mean nothing to Bangladeshis. The many good people I’ve met all around Bangladesh care deeply about these concepts, regardless of their station in life - they may not write volumes of scholarly articles about them, but that does not mean that the concepts are not important in their everyday lives.
I think every Bangladeshi understands instinctively the right to be heard and have their opinions respected, whether it is in a village committee deciding how to utilize a local pond, or whether it is in the halls of parliament. I have met very few Bangladeshis who dont like to speak their minds on matters of the day, from what you may consider inconsequential matters such as what the price of the rice at the market ought to be to who should represent them in local councils - its the constitution that hopefully protects their right to speak their minds. And finally every Bangladeshi understands their basic human rights - the freedom from persecution, freedom from fear, all fundamental freedoms that many lost family members fighting for and defending. I think every Bangladeshi understands police brutality and torture - its not a high and mighty concept that is alien to anyone.
To suggest that Bangladeshis somehow do not understand these things because they are too “esoteric” is the height of arrogance and elitism. It is the kind of thinking that causes one to believe in a top-down military-technocratic society as a solution to the ills of Bangladesh.
July 23rd, 2007 at 4:39 pm
Sid,
I’ve been meaning to ask: on this thread or another, you said something about Saudis burning South Asian Qurans. Any details/links on that? Excellent point on the inheritance law and the Arab-centricism of Islamists.
July 23rd, 2007 at 5:10 pm
No links Asif, but I remember being on flights to Riyadh in the 80s and upon arriving at Riyadh Airport, seeing the customs rip through the contents of each and every passenger and fling out, amongst other things, Qurans, Hadith books, tafsirs, religious books in Bangla etc. At the end of the exercise you could see large piles of books that these customs officers had collected and finally, the sweepers would turn up and trash the lot. For some reason, Bangladeshis regard these people as our spiritual superiors!
July 24th, 2007 at 2:08 am
Sid in #45:
A description of Liberal Democracy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_democracy
Please note that nowhere does it mention the word “secular”. The definition of the word “secular” is anything that has nothing to do with religion, non-religious or separate from religion. Bangladesh constitution has moved away from a secular position since 1977 and later Islam was added as the state religion, long before this CTG came into place.
So secular democracy being “alive and kicking in Bangladesh” is highly questionable. But I agree with you that our democracy and constitution is a form of Liberal Democracy, with an Islamic flavor and it can be called a Liberal Islamic Democracy. But as it is a particular solution for the unique situation of the people of Bangladesh, I would not give it a fancy name like Liberal Democracy or Liberal Islamic Democracy, I would simply call it Bangladeshi democracy.
Bangladesh constitution does not explicitly follow the Shariah, but it does not contain any article that grossly violates Shariah. Again these are my impressions as a layman, I am not an expert on Bangladesh constitution nor am I a legal scholar.
I think my opinion about Wahhabi movement and Saudi Arabia is sufficiently clear from my previous posts and I will not repeat it here.
But Islam is a world religion and Bangladeshi Islam is a vibrant part of it. 180 million Bengali Muslims (in Bangladesh and India) make it the single largest ethno-linguistic group in Muslim world of 1.5 billion. Because of our minuscule GNP, we have not much relevance or clout now, but over time this may change.
I am well aware of Arab attitudes and how South Asian Muslims are treated and called Miskins. But we have to analyze Arab history to understand this phenomenon. Arab racism was well known and a big issue in early Islamic Caliphate. Arab racism against Persians was one reason for the fall of Umayyads and the rise of Abbasids. In the past few centuries, the Gulf Arab region was a neglected backwater of Osman Empire, with Mecca and Medina being the only exceptions. The sudden advent of oil wealth in the past 60 years has made the new rulers of the gulf countries fabulously rich and the rest of the population lazy as most are on state welfare, and this material change has not done much to improve the Human development of the population. This state of affairs has to do it a well known phenomenon called “Resource Curse”, an interesting article about this is here:
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=3426&page=0
This underdeveloped state of Gulf Arab states’ population (lack of Human Development) coupled with the fact that most of the South Asian migrant workers that found jobs there were poor and uneducated, is the combination responsible for todays Arab attitudes. But not all Arabs were poor hosts for their guest workers, I have heard from my classmate who lived with his parents in Iraq in the 70’s before Iraq-Iran war broke out that Iraqi’s were polite and friendly with foreigners. Just 300 years ago Indian Muslims were one of the wealthiest in the Muslim world and Arabs did not look down upon Indian Muslims at those times, as far as I know. Hindustan then was a favorite destination for Central Asian and Arab muslim immigrants, as well as for European traders. I believe these attitudes are largely a function of relative wealth, education, human development etc. and they change over time with changes in real condition of people.
The International Fiqh body was setup under OIC. It is influenced by Saudi Arabia due to funding and location, but it is not Saudi Wahabi fiqh system. As members of the global Islamic community, I believe, it is our duty and responsibility to participate and contribute in this Islamic effort, because we can fight from these platforms extremist Islamism, Wahhabism and all that has gone wrong in the recent past in the world of Islam that continues to affect Bangladeshi Muslims as well as other Muslims everywhere.
Lets also not forget that the Gulf Arab countries are still our biggest source of overseas remmitance, which is helping the economy of Bangladesh and lets not forget that lately these hateful Arabs have started investing in our economy in a not so insignificant manner, an encouraging sign. An easy solution to the paradox of resource curse for oil rich Muslim states would be to invest heavily in fellow resource poor Muslim nations in education, infrastructure and help these countries achieve development, so when the oil runs out, they would be able to depend on steady return from investments made into these friendly countries who happen to share their religion.
You have said something interesting:
“if we are to develop an Islamic Democracy in Bangladesh, it must be done within Bangladeshi existing legal parameters and within the framework of a Bangladeshi secular liberal democracy”
Please note that Bangladesh constitution is no longer secular and recognize Islam as the state religion. Again lets not call our democracy Islamic, secular or liberal, it is simply Bangladeshi democracy.
It seems that you have some kind of phobia against Islamic laws and tend to think that all Islamic laws are fundamentally biased, unfair and against Universal Human Rights. While some Islamic laws are probably obsolete and need reinterpretation, the majority of Islamic laws are humane and functioned well in a vast region of the globe for far longer than secluar laws. This does not mean that we should replace our existing laws with Shariah and Fiqh, but it can be a good reference to look at.
Ijtihad refers to a specific mechanism of new interpretation that was practised in Abbasid era and later deemphasized specially among Sunni Muslims in 11th century, but was kept alive among Shia Muslims. Among other factors, this was blamed as one reason for the fall of Islamic civilization. If you are referring to this due to Irshad Manji’s work, then I must say that writers like Irshad Manji do not represent real Islamic Ulema. A call for Ijtihad and its usage has to be discussed and studied at International Fiqh academy, among other such important issues by expert Ulema. Ijtihad is reserved for highly knowledgeable specialized Ulema’s called Mujtahids, the likes of which are rare nowadays, it is not for laymen to dabble in. These efforts are just in their very initial stages, it is too early to tell, what the future of Islamic law will look like in the 21st century. Just to keep things in perspective, we the Muslims of the world have just gone through a devastating colonial domination for the last 100-300 years and are just starting to think on our own. So lets not get carried away with our achievements and set backs in the past few decades.
Our ancestors accepted Islam mostly from Central Asian sufi preachers for pragmatic and practical reasons, whether the reasons have diminished only time will tell, but definitely we did not become Muslim’s to become Arab slaves.
July 24th, 2007 at 11:45 am
khilji
My phobia is only of the worst abuses of Islamic law that are ill-suited to modern life. My phobia is of Muslims who feel the need to re-instate and universalise these laws, in spite of their horrific abuses.
We are more in agreement than at odds with most of our arguments. We both believe that there are many Islamic laws are no more than fossils from a bygone age. They exists to show the nonsense of the concept of “the universality and timelessnes of Islamic Law”. Informal avoidance or wholesale disregard of laws such as the stoning of women for adultery, capital punishment for homosexuals, the burden of proof for rape being placed on the victim. or the example of inheritance law that I provided show that ordinary people, in the practice of their ordinary lives, have decided for themselves the redundancy of these laws.
On the other hand, I also accept that there are many ways of life in which humans can flourish. I don’t believe that the highly individualistic type of family life found in some western countries is the best for all human beings. I reject that Western ephemeral moral fashions should be made law for all of humankind.
In matters of personal morality, my own views are liberal, even ultra-liberal. But I realise that personal freedoms I value should not be given the standing of universal human rights. But likewise, I expect the same of advocates of other morality-systems, which in the case of this discussion, has been the Islamic system.
July 24th, 2007 at 9:21 pm
Mash in #44:
Ok, I will also then remain a Bangladeshi voice, unless there is an absolute need, why burden the readers with unnecessary information.
By people I meant 150.5 million Bangladeshi, of course you and I are part of this set, but our importance is 1/75,000,000, considering there are around 50% population below voting age. So when the CTG took over and the nation justifiably let out a collective sigh of relief after the chaos and anarchy, then we can take that as a sign that the nation approved the declaration of emergency on 1/11. But as you pointed out, this opinion of mine could be wrong, as there was no referendum. I think we need to strengthen our polling agencies, so we could get some pulse of the nation without going through an election or a referendum at times like these.
There is no way to know absolutely that this CTG’s intentions are benign, but so far it seems that whatever its doing it is doing for the publics benefit, we could question their wisdom and I am sure many mistakes are being made along the way, but so far the general trend is not against greater public benefit.
I am glad to know that you have met people from many parts of the country from village committee to parliament and that definitely shows that you know our country well enough. I agree with you that all voices need to heard and certainly they are valuable in their respective spheres.
July 24th, 2007 at 9:57 pm
Sid,
I see contradiction in your following suggestion.
“Liberal Democracy (LD) can and will be able to accomodate the Islamic system of law within limits because LDs are by nature, pluralist and secular.”
Liberal Democrats can try as much to reconcile with Islamic ways but when Islamic ways refuses to reconcile with progressive ways, the possibility of a reciprocal relationship goes out of the window. Let me further illustrate it with an example. Some would say that in our current obsession with environmental and ecological concerns, an ecologically concerned vegan/vegetarian purist political figure like Hitler would fit right in. But at what cost? What, if any, indemnties for such a psychopathological synthesis?
Mash,
We might disagree on religion but I like your responses.
July 24th, 2007 at 10:11 pm
Muhammad,
Is this your attempt at invoking Godwin’s Law to tell us that this discussion has gone on long enough?
If not, please explain how you expect us to take seriously a comparison between present day Islamists with all their faults and a mass murderer who killed 6 million people? Other than in the imagination of Western Neo-conservatism, where else does this link exist?
July 24th, 2007 at 11:43 pm
Muhammad
When suggesting liberal democracy has the ability to accomodate diverse heterodox ideologies whilst remaining liberal, I was really referring to regimes and not, necessarily, individuals.
Individuals can of course be extremely conflicted, and I take your point about Hitler. He was an unhinged monster who, for all we know, played with kittens, loved babies and ate vegetarian curries. Similarly, Maududi was probably a good man within the value system of an orthodox Sunni value system. But outside of that, he was a narrow, exoteric mullah calling for the massacre of innocent men and women.
The good thing about pluralist systems is that individual anomalies like Hitler and Maududi are caught in the net at an early stage.
July 24th, 2007 at 11:57 pm
Mash in #44:
This is a continuation of #51, I hit the Submit button by mistake.
But consider where these concepts of democracy, due process and human rights are coming from - they are a product of the same Western societies that reduced us into a pauper in a matter of few hundred years. These same Western societies just in the span of last 500 years have managed to decimate many indigenous cultures and civilizations in the Americas and Oceania, threatened the delicate balance of the environment (global-warming is one example), made many species extinct in the name of corporate greed and filled our daily lives with unnecessary toxic chemicals and radio-active substances. The soap, shampoo, toothpaste and dishwashing liquid that we use are filled with carcinogenic toxic chemicals and they are being acculmulated in our body eventually causing degenerative desease like diabetes, cancer, blood pressure etc. Then they make money off of us by selling medicines that make us even more sick. Agent Orange in Vietnam, Depleted Uranium shell dusts in Afghanistan, Iraq, Lebanon and Palestine will continue to make life difficult for many generations (where expensive organic and health food stores become ever popular in the West). And I will not even touch the GWOT issue and how many people its killing everyday. Evangelicals from these predatory societies continue to put their powerful claws in all parts of the world with humanitarian NGO’s to civilize and convert the poor and vulnerable and lure them away from their ancestral faith, culture and tradition, destroying forever an unknown number of unique cultural traditions:
http://www.joshuaproject.net/
Please study this site, you will know where and how the church money is being spent, sometimes under camouflage, in apparently harmless NGO’s to deceive the real purpose of humanitarian projects. Most churches collect 10% of the members income and I believe its tax deductible. Again, I am not trying to establish that there is a grand conspiracy, its just that things have actually turned out this way and the above are established facts in history.
So anything that comes from these sources, we need to judge them with a critical eye and see how well they apply to the current socio-economic state of our society. Most of the miracle economies of asia developed not because of wide spread democracy, but because of an efficient command and control economy, such as China, Taiwan, Singapore, South Korea, Malaysia etc. Please note that I am not supporting that we follow these countries, we have already started out on a democratic path, which is irreversible and we should continue on this path, no matter how much difficulty we face now. But does that mean, we cannot have corrective actions like the CTG, or some form of check and balance like the Turkish model, I think we should consider these options carefully and changes in the constitution should be attempted only in the parliament by a majority vote of elected representatives.
The potential of the human brain and mind is unlimited. As it is born into this world, it is spotless like a blank slate, then it starts soaking up information like a sponge and learn language, culture etc. from its environment as a child grows up. The initial large number of neurons reduce in number and connections slowly become hardwired and eventually by the age 25, the brain is fairly crystallized. Proper nutrition is absolutely important in this formative stage.
Why I mention this, because once the brain is crystallized, it is difficult to unlearn the many things it has learnt and grown up with and men could see so many things if only they could unlearn all that they have been programmed with, men could see with completely new eyes, the world would be a fantastic place full of brilliant colors, but this is the realm of saints and seers, not for us mere mortals.
It might help to visualize a human society and compare it with the most complex entity that is known to us, ie the human body. As the human body grows from a single fertilized cell, it goes through all the phases of its evolutionary past. From a single cell, through repeated cell divisions eventually a full grown human body contains estimated 100 trillion cells. These cells do not remain the same, they specialize and perform different functions in different organs. So a Neuron in the brain would perform a different function than a red blood cell for example, although the function of both are equally vital for the survival and health of the human body.
So if we make a simplistic comparison between nations or communities with a living human body, then we could say that the citizens are like the cells, performing different functions, but all contributing to the general well being of the collective whole. The better the different organs perform their respective functions, the better the whole body performs. But chaos starts when cancer cells starts regenerating without check and balance or white blood cell attacks part of the human body, mistaking it as a foreign body. In general, it is impossible for a neuron to function as a red blood cell, or a kidney filtration cell to work as a heart muscle cell.
Since the advent of Muslims in the Sub-continent, Hindustan had been integrated into a single nation, at varying degrees of success at different times. At Akbars time, it was almost completely under Muslim rule, but soon after the Maratha’s and Sikh’s rose up to curve up their own empires and in these turbulent times the British came in and eventually took control, except for the North West corner. So for almost a 1000 years most of the sub-continent had a shared experience and started functioning like a single nation, although there were tensions under the surface. In 1947 this entity was cut into three pieces. Two distant parts tried to find a common future based on a common religion, but failed. Once these three parts were physically seperated as two nation states, the evolution of the population of these three parts had already started back in 1947, from unformed cut pieces to three fully functional nations. Now lets consider the time lines, 1000 years in the previous larger national entity and just 60 years in these new entities. My hypothesis is that in case of Bangladesh, our neurons in the brain (read leadership) are still in the process of formation and they have not yet reached a stage to function properly. Without a proper functioning brain, sometimes we are hitting some brick walls and getting hurt, some times we are stumbling on some unseen objects and falling down and at most times we are walking in circles and not yet being able to find out the direction we should be walking towards and then find a good path to that direction. Will democracy, due process and human rights get us there, is this the shortest, direct and easiest path to that goal, or is there any other means, frankly the nation could care less. As I mentioned, we have already started on a democratic path and we should continue, but the critical problem is not this democracy, due process and human rights, but finding, nurturing and retaining this proper leadership elements that could eventually take the place of the neurons in the brains of our nation, fire up the eyes, ask the body to get up and start walking towards the salvation of our people. We have come a long way sing 1947 and since 1971, we are making progress now and I am hopeful that regardless of how bad it looks, we will eventually prevail, Insha-Allah.
July 26th, 2007 at 2:00 am
Khilji at #55, I have to confess that you have stumped me with your comment. I am at a loss to respond to the points you have raised - mostly because they remind me of General Jack Ripper from the movie Dr. Strangelove talking about the “conspiracy”:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekw3XVq1uHs
More seriously, I guess you and I fundamentally disagree on questions of human rights, due process and democracy. I think you should also take a look at the Koran to disavow you of the notion that human rights or due process are somehow “western” concepts.
Still, assuming they are “western” concepts, what specifically do you find problematic with them?
What specifically do you find problematic with human rights - fundamentally the right to life?
What specifically do you find problematic with due process - that is the right of a citizen to protection of law when the state wants to deprive that person of life, liberty or property?
Railing against the “evils” of the west may be emotionally satisfying and may get the juices of jingoism going, but it is inherently contradictory (that is to say, nonsensical). Perhaps you should stop using the soap, shampoo or toothpaste you are using, as you find them “toxic”. We in the United States have stopped using the toothpaste shipped from China because it was discovered it contained anti-freeze. I recall a few years back it was discovered that some insulin shots in Bangladesh did not actually contain insulin and as a result diabetic patients were going into shock - the culprit turned out to be enterprising Bangladeshis ready to make a quick buck. Or what of the host of contaminated food and beverages in Bangladesh being marketed by unscrupulous Bangladeshis at the expense of their fellow citizens? We have plenty of culprits to deal with at home before bothering to look at historical (hysterical) grievances regarding the toxicity of toothpaste and shampoo.
Its easy to scapegoat external forces but it rarely leads to productive solutions, and also leads to lack of credibility when trying to raise real issues of concern when dealing with foreign countries.
Finally, I should remind you that when you post on DP, you are using the internet which is a product of innovation at DARPA (US military) and the work of pioneers like Steve Crocker and Vint Cerf - both American computer scientists who I have had the pleasure to work for.
July 26th, 2007 at 7:10 am
Mash in #56:
I am glad to know that you have worked with Steve and Vint, good for you. For your information I studied Computer and Electrical Engineering in Univ. of Texas, Austin (Graduated with Summa Cum Laude) and while there I was on a Phd. program for Plasma Dynamics and Fusion Engineering, but never finished it. For a few years I worked as an RA for Dept. of Energy collecting data for MIT and Princeton as well as UT Tokamak Fusion reactors. All that data collection was done on Arpanet (the predecessor of Internet), and this was in mid 80’s. Then I worked for one of the largest computer makers as a VLSI chip designer, in the late 80’s.
Although I went back for some years to Bangladesh (please look at NRB disillusionment post #8 for what I was doing there), I have been living in the US for the last decade, and I don’t use any toxic toiletries, I always buy organic from Whole Foods Market. I even buy organic cotton and hemp clothes for everything I wear. If you want to live long, you should do the same for you and your family.
Also for your information I stood first in HSC and stood 2nd in SSC (my brother beat me to it, he was 1st), from Govt. Lab High School in Dhaka. Not that they mean anything, but it probably shows that I am not at least a lunatic or a raving mad.
The Asian model of development do not work well with democracy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asian_Tigers
Even so, I have mentioned not once but many times that we have already started on a path of democracy and we should continue on this path.
My disgust about the state of the planet is genuine and I know who was responsible for it. People are only becoming aware very slowly and I believe 50-100 years from now, we will have a much less toxic environment and world to live in. Does this mean I hate anybody for it, no I do not, because we cannot the hold the children responsible for the crime of fathers and grandfathers. The current generation in the West are much more aware than in the past and the situation is improving every day.
What I see today is compartmental or incomplete education, because of specialization, most people have a very one sided view of reality. This has happened in the last few hundred years. But knowledge has no boundary and reality has no departments. There is today multidisciplinary studies but it is still too little too late and this departmentalized education is one of the fundamental drawback for todays generation.
I see that I have failed to communicate with you and to convey certain ideas, I will not try further, because it does not seem to be going anywhere. You are picking out certain parts of my argument and coming back with put-downs, platitudes and personal attacks, without debating anything of value.
July 26th, 2007 at 8:01 pm
the last
wordessay goes to you, khilji.November 3rd, 2007 at 9:56 am
[...] That Jamaat has some link with the regime has been suggested before, and with good reasons — here is an example. However, Jamaat is simply not strong enough when it comes to electoral arithmetic [...]