Tue 1 May 2007
May Day holiday. Dhaka streets empty, peaceful (like post-Eid). Went to work in relaxed mode, no traffic. An SMS from Mishu Rahman of Channel I burst my bubble….The “bombers” are “back”.
A series of bombs went off at Dhaka, Sylhet and Chittagong railway stations today between 6:45am and 9:30am. Aluminium plate found near scene with inscribed message: All must quit NGO jobs by May 10, all ‘Kadianis’ must recognise Prophet Muhammad (sm) or face death after May 10. Below the message on the plate was inscribed: Zadith (Al Qaeda, Bangladesh).
Questions:
*What kind of terrorist inscribes message on aluminium plate? Seems odd and kitschy..
*How exactly does one become the “Al Qaeda” branch in Bangladesh? Was there an initiation ceremony? Little wallet size cards? Laden dropped by?
*How do you manage to explode 3 bombs in a country of 140 million, where you can’t move w/o bumping into people, and not kill anyone? Very odd terrorists to go by the AQ tag.
*Of all targets, why again Ahmadiyas (Kadianis)? Population of 200,000? Why not the expected targets of “AQ”– US, ES Embassy, “The West”, bla bla?
*Finally, not very media savvy actually to do it on this holiday. Many people didn’t know about it until few hours later. And today all newspapers are closed, so saturation coverage only on TV and blogs.
Once again, Bangladesh as a chess board for puppetmasters. The question always is, who benefits from a security panic?
John Gray writes that no cliche is more pervasive than considering these movements a throwback to “medieval times”. They are a direct product of globalization. Projecting a privat form of violence to grab a global audience’s attention was never
Spoke to Ahmad Tabshir of Ahmadiya (”Kadiyani” to their enemies) jamaat, he gave interviews to all the channels. I made my film on Ahmadiya crisis in 2004, at the time we had no idea this thing would drag on forever. Somebody doesn’t want it to die.
Reports atDhakashohor Blog and BdNews24.com
May 1st, 2007 at 7:43 am
I’m putting up fresh news links to this story on my blog as long as I’m awake. If any of you are there or are watching Deshi channels, please keep us updated through the comments section. Thanks. http://dhakashohor.blogspot.com/2007/05/breaking-news-bomb-blasts-in-dhaka.html
May 1st, 2007 at 7:55 am
Security has been beefed up at all transit hubs.
May 1st, 2007 at 7:57 am
*Channel 1 is reporting about it now
*Bdnews24 reports IGP Police says terror networks are still active (don’t know if this is before or after blast)
May 1st, 2007 at 8:10 am
naeem,
Check out the Reuters link on my blog, updates 1 or 8 for quotes from officials. And thanks for keeping us updated. Any idea why the story took so long to break? Five hours or so since the first blast.
May 1st, 2007 at 8:25 am
All the international news link here:
The Star, Malaysia
Bomb blasts rock Bangladesh terminals, none hurt
IHT
Small explosions hit three train stations across Bangladesh
Fox News
STRING OF BOMBINGS AT TRAIN STATIONS INJURES 1 IN BANGLADESH
RAW STORY
Bombs at Bangladesh railway stations
Khaleeztimes
Bomb blasts rock Bangladesh terminals, none hurt
Mail and Guardian
Bomb blasts rock Bangladesh rail terminals
China Post, Taiwan
Three small explosions reported at three train stations across Bangladesh
TVNZ
Bomb blasts rock Bangladesh terminals
France24
Bombs at Bangladesh railway stations
May 1st, 2007 at 8:38 am
M&Ms are back: Law and Order Advisory Committee chairman Mainul Hosein said the morning bomb blasts that rocked Dhaka, Chittagong and Sylhet were ‘nothing serious’. Another member, MA Matin, was not aware of the blasts until Tuesday noon.
May 1st, 2007 at 8:41 am
I heard the story of Sylhet and Dhaka station bombing in Channel I 9 AM news on May 1. i.e Channel I reported Dhaka bombing with 1 hour of the incidence.
May 1st, 2007 at 8:44 am
Thanks Rumi for the breaking news time.
May 1st, 2007 at 8:53 am
Interdisciplinary Center (ICT), Israel has published yesterday a article as ”
Jama’atul Mujahideen Bangladesh: Militant Islamist Terror”.
And one day after publishing that article
http://ict.org.il/apage/12227.php ,
BD has to suffer bomb blast in three Cities.
Is there any link with Israel?
May 1st, 2007 at 9:19 am
Sushanta,
As I’ve mentioned on your blog, this is just coincidence. Conspiracy theories are useless.
Naeem, what did Ahmed Tabshir have to say?
May 1st, 2007 at 9:53 am
Bangla Bhai remnants?
These matters are so promptly reported, even before people inside the country know whats going on properly. Its the weird globalised information architecture of the world.
Only Naeems reports seem to show any concern about those hurt, the international ones just spin the politics. Theres a bigger element of psy ops in these events.
Maybe its because the world press radar is overly sensitised. Maybe its more insidious, that some forces wish to invite this attention to seize power and influence. There is no shortage of gullible muslims these days.
The brisbane times piece(if credible) has a group featured calling themselves Zadid al Quaeda. which is a mistake that only a bangladeshi not exposed to the greater islamic world or islamic studies could make. It there any more info on this, was it a mistake in conveying the translation or in the text itself?
Naeem,
it looks a little like a half baked political plan. I have a nasty suspicion that theres going to be more daft analysis about this which political forces will utilise to our collective detriment do denigrate the most vulnerable in society.
May 1st, 2007 at 10:49 am
Naeem: once again Bangladesh being used as a chess board for puppetmasters.
Possible. But there is no reason to rule out purely homegrown elements. I think I read it in AsifY’s blog: these attacks, like the 64-district attack of 2005, seem to be more about making a statement than killing a lot of people (although they probably don’t mind killing a lot of people - collateral damage is not the monopoly of the west).
One explanation of the rise of Jihadi violence in Bangladesh is that some of the groups are like Naxalites of the late 1960s India. Naxalites were by and large extreme communists who were disillusioned by the mainstream communist parties’ preference for election politics and the perks of the office instead of fighting the revolution. In the same way, the argument goes, some of the Jihadis are extremists and former members of Jamaat (or other Islam-pasand parties) who are disillusioned with the party’s decision to go into election politics.
If this explanation is correct, then it shouldn’t come as a surprise that high among their ‘demands’ is declaring Ahmadiyas non-Muslims. This used to be Jamaat-e-Islami’s signature issue. Maolana Maududi led attacks on the sect in the 1950s, and the riots led to martial law being declared in parts of Pakistan. Zulfi Bhutto declared Ahmadiyas non-Muslim in 1977 to appease Jamaat. And closer to home, AL a few months ago figured that they could attract some votes by following Bhutto.
And the reason why this demand should not be entertained? In 1953, two judges were appointed to write a report on what the government should do about defining a Muslim. The judges, Munir and Kiyani, interviewed all the leading Islamic scholars of the subcontinent and beyond. The result was a 350 page report that contains these words.
‘The result…, however has been anything but satisfactory and if considerable confusion exists in the minds of our ulama on such a simple matter, one can easily imagine what the differences on more complicated matters will be…. Keeping view the several different definitions given by the ulama, need we make any comment except that no two learned divines are agreed on this fundamental. If we attempt our own definition as each learned divine has done and that definition differs from that given by all others, we unanimously go out of the fold of Islam. And if we adopt the definition given by any one of the Ulama, we remain Muslims according to the view of that alim, but kafirs according to the definitions of everyone else.’
This is about the most cogent argument against a theocracy I’ve ever read.
May 1st, 2007 at 11:48 am
I hate it when criminals hijack moral highgrounds.
The Ahmedi issue is a no brainer to Muslims who believe in the creed and accord a degree of truth value from disciplines derived from revealed knowledge. You clearly dont Andrew so id suggest that your ongoing use of the word ‘we’ in terms of Bangladesh(if it is) is sweet but misleading. Also your adoption of the term islam-pasand is patronising.
Please substantiate what you mean by maulana moududi leading attacks or people will think you mean something very specific.
The late great Shayk Abul Hasan Ali Nadwi of Lucknow wrote well about this, a pair of pakistani judges averaging over 350 legal opinions is not the epitome of ‘getting to the heart of the issue’. In his foreword shayk nadwi mentions how he didnt want to touch this issue with a bargepole but it became such a tabloid cause of fitna that he gave it a go.
Islamic doctrine has the right to protect itself from misinterpretation about the nature of prophethood and cultish loyalty to an alleged khalifa or Imam. The Muslim public has the right to access religious knowledge that says what it does on the tin.
Islamic knowledge culture has its own problems that the pak text alludes to. Thats another debate which we have been having for generations.
The issue of cruelty and backwardness in making this a priority issue for misled political forces is depressing and that is where the dialogue for restraint and dignity should place itself. The Ahmedi thing is petty (at least for those not being scared by it).
The NGO worker threat is novel to me. The BBC World Trust survey in Bangladesh had NGO workers amongst the least trusted people. If thats not enough to slap some reflection into them, I dont know what is.
In Bangladesh the attitude in intellectually honest circles, (ie those not paid off) is that ‘Oh well at least its a job’ or ‘if it wasnt for them noone would to anything the GoB is lame’, even though the futility and cultural invasion side of the NGO sector are accepted.
Local, junior NGO workers are amongst the coolest people ive met in Bangladesh (bit naive though), up there with madrassa staff and the kookier academics. They are people who give you hope as what they say and do resemble each other several times a day.
That they should threaten this group of employees with a 10 day deadline suggests their project schedule has a short time scale. I hope they are caught before then and that this matter doesnt soak more attention than its due even though its quite sexy.
May 1st, 2007 at 12:06 pm
Has the CTG issued any statements? Interesting that political violence by fringe groups has not been part of the national discussions in the past year and how best to address them. The arrest and hanging of a handful of members is analogous to slaying the nine-headed beast. It still does not address some of the root causes of how such movements gain such legitimacy. An absence of such incidents did not necessarily imply the disappearance of such groups.
While it is very possible to speculate on the invisible hands that may have pulled the strings, it is also critical to keep in mind that some of the rhetoric is amenable to being coopted to satisfy domestic agendas. This does not of course mean that small movements inside the country have indirect or even direct links to larger, insidious organizations.
May 1st, 2007 at 12:07 pm
FOR UPDATE:
May 1st, 2007 at 12:41 pm
Muslim is only to propagate revealed knowledge. Theocracy is not in Islam. As there is nothing called Islamic State. Prophets were only ordained to rule and govern, what is called khilafa is kilafat of prophet.All four Imams were outside the politics but devoted their whole life propegating revealed knowledge, one gave life in prison( A Hanifa) for refusing to enter into politics.
Establishing Islam through coercing found no where. these are all modern phenomenons.
Terrorism is crispy issue you can make millions and can be famous overnight these days. Knowledge is Islam not necessarily our madrasah education. it does not provide much of Islam or even knowledge, only great characteristics it bears is its affordability.
We are getting carried away with lofty issues while hard core phenomenons and issues do not attract attention.
‘Tiner boma’did hit the headlines, how easily it can get world attention.
May 1st, 2007 at 2:49 pm
Islamic doctrine has the right to protect itself from misinterpretation about the nature of prophethood and cultish loyalty to an alleged khalifa or Imam. The Muslim public has the right to access religious knowledge that says what it does on the tin.
Fugstar, would you care to clarify what you mean by this? ‘Protect itself’ how exactly?
As for the ‘Muslim public’, I grew up in a neighbourhood in Dhaka which has had a Ahmadiyya mosque since before I was born, two mins from my house. Never saw the Muslim public bother about it until the last few years when the mosque suddenly became a focal point. Every time I go back now, there’s a cop sitting in front.
So please let us know how this ‘protecting itself’ and ‘Muslim public’s right’ works in real-life, vis a vis the Bangladeshi Kadiyanis.
May 1st, 2007 at 3:03 pm
I doubt these are real Al Qaeda affiliates - more likely they are wannabe affilates trying to draw attention.
In any case, bomb blasts and threats are serious matter and they should be dealt accordingly by Bangladesh authorities.
May 1st, 2007 at 3:40 pm
Zubaer
Protect itself by defining the beliefs that it holds. Thats why i spent a while saying where the dialogue should be, not on liberal theological fudging (as it doesnt work).
Meanness isn’t part of protection. Thats a Class ‘A’ case of warped priorities, emotional bangladeshiness and sheer waste of human resources.
Good leadership in society would be able to translate this passion constructively into public good.
It really depresses me that these folks think they are respecting Our Nabi and his traditions when they do this stuff.
Id like to add that if they experienced and recognised nobility and progress through the main political leadership they wouldnt be messing around like this.
maybe its too late for that generation?
Haque,
I see it like this, because i squint. Many people are passionate about an Islamic state because they want deliverence and find it hard to articulate that urge in any other way. They want dignity, moral restraint, wiser planning, sovereignty, they want their identity as created beings with a spiritual dimension expressed in their collective identity.
The ideas (carried by the slogan)carried will improve and diversify as the knowledge culture improves (most historically prominant Muslim educational institutions are in india, Alighar, deoband, osmania, dar al nadwa we are trying to build an infrastructure). We are still running on 1960s stuff these days
Haque,
We really need funky scholars with integrity, who dont change their minds like politicians according to which way the political wind blows. At present politically correct deshi opinion formers ritually denigrate these people so our youngsters dont even know they existed and the work they did. Any ideas on how to remedy this?
May 1st, 2007 at 3:53 pm
[...] Blog reports that the news came very slowly to Bangladeshis because this was a holiday, and people were not [...]
May 1st, 2007 at 4:12 pm
Fugstar
Whether you like it or not, the people Bangladesh will also band together to protect it’s freedoms and democratic pluralism from the obscurantaism of cowardly Islamist fuckwits who wish to bomb their way to a Khilafah.
And it will be done exactly in the same way Turkey has done it. By rule of law and due process.
May 1st, 2007 at 5:07 pm
FYI, Ahmadiyas only call themselves Ahmadiyas. “Kadiyani” is a slur (derived from the birthplace of the religion) popularized by their opponents.
May 1st, 2007 at 7:04 pm
Andrew,
Thank you very much for that quote. I read it a few years back, and although I think both Kayani and Munir are grade-A sell-outs, it was a very accurate observation nonetheless. (If you’re wondering, it was Kayani who more or less gave the legal backing to Ayub and Munir’s books reveal him to hold the same stereo-typical opinions of Bangladeshis that Fugstar unfortunately reveals in comment 11 when he says only a Bangladeshi could have made this mistake!) The quote is the biggest case for tolerance among different creeds that I’ve read so far.
Of course it doesn’t solve the problem of “cultural authenticity” that two judges trained in the British legal system can question 350 alim trained in the Islamic legal system. And not vice versa. That in itself is a clue as to where state power lies and why, even though our governments are not un-Islamic on the whole, there is a constant cry for an “Islamic state”.
Fugstar,
That Maududi was a key figure in the anti-Ahmaddiya campaign of ‘53 is something that even the Jamaat will tell you proudly. I understand that you may respect Maududi, but face facts: the man started a trend that has led to this.
“Islamic doctrine has the right to protect itself from misinterpretation about the nature of prophethood and cultish loyalty to an alleged khalifa or Imam” What is that? The rallying cry for “fitna”? What do you think is going through every Sunnis’ head in Iraq nowadays? That very same sentence.
I know you don’t preach violence. But sentences like these do not help. Personally, I’m an orthodox, believing Sunni; but that has not stopped me from looking up what the Shi’a say, or living in a constant fear of “misinterpretation”. I mean, Sunnis are 90% of the Muslim world. What are they afraid of?
May 1st, 2007 at 7:06 pm
correction: “has not stopped me from looking up what the Shi’a say or made me live with a constant of misinterpretation”
May 1st, 2007 at 7:24 pm
Well now for once, Hasina cannot claim it was another brainchild of Hawa Bhaban, in trying to gain voters from national terror crises, instead of taking the crises into the Parliament to cut the root of the menace.
May 1st, 2007 at 7:43 pm
correction 2: By “Andrew”, I obviously meant “Anthony”. Apologies to all concerned for the mix-up.
May 1st, 2007 at 9:55 pm
Naeem,
An answer to your questions in the update: http://dhakashohor.blogspot.com/2007/05/morning-after.html
May 1st, 2007 at 10:03 pm
AsifY, no problem about the mixup.
Fugstar, I presume I was also your target. I won’t get into a theological discussion with you on who is and isn’t a Muslim. As for Maududi leading the 1950s riots, as AsifY said, talk to any Jamaat member and they’d tell you. And as for Islam-pasand being patronising, I apologise if I’ve hurt your feeling, but you shouldn’t feel patronised. The term Islam-pasand arose in the 1950s Pakistan when Nezam-e-Islam and other similar parties decided to use it separate them from the Muslim League.
May 1st, 2007 at 10:06 pm
Fugstar: The Ahmedi issue ….You clearly dont Andrew so id suggest that your ongoing use of the word ‘we’ in terms of Bangladesh(if it is) is sweet but misleading.
I don’t know if you mean to equate Bangladesh=Muslim, and I don’t need to justify my faith, but I will continue to use ‘we’ for both thank you very much.
May 1st, 2007 at 10:12 pm
The blasts seem more like “Potkas” than anything that can cause actual damage.
It appears to be just an attempt to grab attention, which the wannabe militants have succeded. Both AL and BNP have exploded bigger and better devices on dhaka streets during hartals and blockades.
However the people behind this sort of activities should be pursued and put out of business.
May 1st, 2007 at 10:41 pm
AsifY
I dont think its stereotypical to observe the Z to J muddle up. By the way bangladeshi kids trained in ‘the ways’ win interummah qirat competitions, so its by no means a blanket generalisation on the whole populace.
I dont know what sunnis are afraid of. How about pretty much everything? Its a big puzzle.
with the ‘alleged khalifa’ thing i was referring to ahmedi religious doctrine.
Maulana Maududi isnt a particular favourite of mine (Said Nursi, Shah Waliullah, Fazlur Rahman, Shah Ahmad Madani, Syed Ali Ashraf, Syed Hussein alatas) but he is interesting and had activities. What I was getting at is that he didnt actually go bash ahmedis around the head did he? do people here have trustworthy accounts of him leading rabbles?
Islamic types (cant find terminology that is unloaded) need to more beyond divisive movements running on old petrol and learn from Indonesian and Turkish contributions.
Dhanmondhi sid,
I object to your profanity, admire your passion but dont realy understand you very much, especially your support for the undemocratic stuff happening in Turkey.
Mental note to self ‘check out Khatme Nuwabat when i am in dhaka’.
May 1st, 2007 at 11:34 pm
Fugstar,
Maududi may not have physically LED the riots, but he sure instigated them. When a general orders his soldiers into battle from HQ, who’s leading them?
Z and J mix up: if you read that post (11), we have no idea what mistake you were referring to. However, that is a mistake that ANY non-Arabic speaker could make, not simply one from Bangladesh. That’s all I’m trying to say. And of course, Deshis recite stuff as well as anyone else once they know the language.
In Turkey in particular, in Indonesia to a smaller extent, the military has been the sworn enemy of Islamists. Egypt is the other great example. Whenever Islamists have been forced to talk to people and learn instead of being dogmatic, they have had some progressive ideas. E.g. Refah in Turkey and the post 2005-elections Ikhwan in Egypt (an election in which it fielded a significant number of women candidates may I add). But once again, I have not heard a single instance where Islamists became tolerant and non-divisive without fervent opposition.
May 2nd, 2007 at 1:18 am
These bombings will continue as long as the perverted corruption is there, as terrorism is an off-shoot of poverty, mainly fathered by the perverted corruption.
May 2nd, 2007 at 1:43 am
i havent met any other linguistic group that makes the Z and J swap like many of us do and i feel ive moved through a awful lot of muslim cultures. we do it to our adopted farsi and urdu words too you know!
2nd point
So fervent opposition/division/diversity and islamhaters(indulge me) are healthy for Islamic society?!? maybe theres some causality gap happening here. Maybe we all pick up the history of political muslimness from different start points in time and space.
Each society has its own hang ups and difficulties, memory losses and vested interests (western and eastern) in keeping bridges burnt.
Will look into the social happenings around the Ahmedi fitna and JIP at the time at some stage.
boishakhi
I still dont *get* whose attention they are after. is the warning to ngo workers something new? whats with the aluminium dishes? Is the injured man going to be ok?
One day i want to compile a macabre catalogue of political weaponry in bangladesh, verbal and physical. Brickbat design and obhorot spatial analysis etc. would any peaceful institution be interested?
May 2nd, 2007 at 4:32 am
Fugstar,
“So fervent opposition/division/diversity and islamhaters(indulge me) are healthy for Islamic society” I didn’t say that, but since you bring it up: it’s healthy for ANY society. We can debate this endlessly, but in the end it’s a matter of belief.
Please read what I said before: that opposition (even Islam-hating one, which I personally don’t agree with) FORCES Islamists to go out and talk to the general population and opposing camps. Otherwise, Islamists tend to be self-righteous, inclusive, hierarchical groups. I didn’t say I’m necessarily happy about this, but that’s the way it has been since the first Islamist party was formed by Hassan al-Banna.
That should give you a clue as to where I start my history of what I call “Islamism”.
“i havent met any other linguistic group that makes the Z and J swap like many of us do and i feel ive moved through a awful lot of muslim cultures. we do it to our adopted farsi and urdu words too you know!”
The entire point of adoption is that they BECOME Bangla and we, the Bangla-speakers, can pronounce them whatever way we want. Otherwise you lose the lanuage the way Brahmins ensured that Sanskrit lost popular usage.
If you’ve moved through a lot of Muslim cultures then surely you know that other people have other mispronounciations of Arabic as well as other languages spoken by the Muslims, including Bangla. So please don’t sound like an Middle-East-centric Muslim and put down Bangla or Bengalis.
May 2nd, 2007 at 7:49 am
one interesting point our famous M&M duo
has again made some silly speech about this blast.
Mainul told “Nothing Serious.” Matin even did not know about it while IG of Police has taken
it very seriously. As Inspector General is part of Govt, I am just curious to know what
is the stand of Govt. I think Chief adviser should clear his standing.
Other wise he should advise his hyper advisers Duo to shut their mouth to deliver
such irresponsible comments.
These type comments will give wrong Signal to
National and International community about
CTG.
May 2nd, 2007 at 8:45 am
Fugstar
State department released a finding yesterday – terrorism is down by 20%, killing has increased by 40%, what do you make up of this. Beauty of any argument is its logical diversions in many contexts, yet if the conclusion do not move the life (living) what a waste.
I prefer to remain with the main issue – Tiner boma’. Gist of the whole issues is indiscipline in the society. We are constantly failing to bring order in the society. How these so short sighted scholars (?) and their devotees bringing hell to people. Whether it is through their misinterpretation of revealed knowledge or their so called forceful actions to bring order in their line, both seems flouting . Quran is open for interpretations, four Imams have done it to their best and if we are ready to base on those we should not have much problem but that is not the reality.
I have heard(as a sermon in the mosque) those returnees from Kabul (or somewhere in AG) who were trained and supported by CIA at that time, in choked voice depicting the plight of Muslims in AG. The naivety and sincere intention of those who wanted to rid of communism (soviet backed regime in Kabul) turned todays Al-Qaeda. Yesterday I heard - Jadid (means- new) alQaeda. Lets consider it as like many other malaise in the society and should oppose it through a mean permissible within the law.
To me any life is more precious than anything else and living a life unhindered should be the goal. We belong to this earth’ walk freely and speak the truth, even it is bitter’. We must save live and endeavor to improve it. Lets indulge in exploring how we can overcome all this social evils through a constructive and effective style. To me, the so called ‘non secular’ and Jihadis are same and causing no good to the humanity. AI’s (Amnesty International) Ireen was happy to see that criminals or convicts are getting less death sentences today, while innocent thousands are giving life in orchestrated killing what is her formula or contention. This is the world we are living in. What JIP, Kadiyani saying or doing, what this fabulously named phony outfits are trying to do may or may not be part of the anyone elses’s offerings but it is a problem we have to face and eliminate. I believe this kind of problem drawing exaggerated focus but to me it is another kind of crime in the society and I condemn it. It is governance problem and today’s political science in global context. However like many other issues under globalization, free market, WTO, global warming, energy security, we must learn to rise up and protect our own habitat before the perpetrators put us down, does not matter in the name of Islam or otherwise.
Bangladeshis do have problem pronouncing Zero, Jew, Zamzam, like Pakistanis have with ‘a’ (pronounce with two A’s) and R often use as D by south Indians, F as P by Philippines and so on. Remember Allen Botha how he spoke and Nelson Mandella.
May 2nd, 2007 at 8:57 am
Theres a raw nerve there dude with your idea of middle east centrics. we can pronounce stuff how we want and pull words into our language because thats what living cultures do! and in doing so we give them our flavouring.
Isn’t the anti social means of marginalising ikhwan and battering it from a very early state responsible for some of it becoming more radicalised and bitter? anyway i agree with your vibe that the fresh air does one good if the opposition is prepared to’give’ you some.
May 2nd, 2007 at 10:13 am
AsifY,
Agree with Kayani being a sellout in the sense that he legitimised Ayub and all other military saviours since him.
About opposing ideas forcing Islam-pasand (I prefer this than Islamist because the latter is the more confusing term) parties/factions/groups to seek out common ground with others, isn’t that the case for any ideology? Isn’t this yet another argument for democratic/competitive politics?
May 2nd, 2007 at 12:26 pm
does anybody know the logical link between the ahmediya’s acceptance of the prophet mohammad (pbuh) as the last prophet and NGOs? the note that the bombers left mentioned that if the first thing doesnt happen by may 10th, then NGO workers will be in danger. huh?!
-shahpar
May 2nd, 2007 at 2:38 pm
Press/public reaction to bombings on day after quite muted. Public er shoye gese perhaps. And also, general skepticism about who is really behind this. Because no deaths, seen as more “stuntbaji” than real threat. Of course if went off in crowded carriage killing scores, story would be very different.
Barr. Mainul Hossein on TV making statements.
May 2nd, 2007 at 4:16 pm
naeem
what about ngo workers and ahmedis?
May 2nd, 2007 at 5:19 pm
#30 Nice: ” Both AL and BNP have exploded bigger and better devices on dhaka streets during hartals and blockades”. ha ha!
Ahmedia was an issue of discussion, not a fight to belivers & those who tried to hurt them were stopped. Those who tried to distruct hindu temple during ‘Babri Masjid’incident were stopped (helped by Jamaat). All Bangladeshis opposed Jangi, but did not belive anti Jamaat propaganda, HS/AW propaganda of Bangladesh tunring out an ‘Al-Kaida’like state. Somehting is working right in Bangldesh where Gujraat like carnage is unthinkable in Bangladeshi norm.
May 2nd, 2007 at 5:35 pm
Mirza Ghulam Ahmad grew up in the small village of Qadiyan, based on which the name Qadiyani is ascribed to his followers. There is nothing demeaning about the term.
Likewise, his follwers are also known as “Mirzais” or more commonly as “Ahmadiyyas”. I grew up in a city not far from Rabwah in Punjab - the spiritual center of Ahmadiyyas the world over. Of late, it has practically been uprooted by successive generations of zealous Pakistani politicians starting with ZA Bhutto who termed them as “non-muslims”.
Many well known Pakistanis belong to this sect. Among them are Dr.Abdus Salam - the nobel laureate and maulana Mohammed Ali - the well known translator of the Holy Quran.
There are two basic divisions within the Ahmadiyyas - those who follow the Rabwah school of thought and those who follow the Lahore school of thought. The Rabwah folks follow distictly different principles that are quite at odds with basic islamic teachings. The Lahori folks practice a brand of Islam that is very similar to basic islamic teachings. They also insist that Prophet Muhammad PBUH was the last prophet. Here is a link, if you want to find out more.
http://www.ahmadiyya.org/
May 2nd, 2007 at 7:43 pm
I hate to inject myself into a religious discussion, but, just to clear the record, I wanted to clarify two things.
First, Reza, said:
I think it is widely known that Ahmadiyyas find the term “Qadiyani” to be derogatory and offensive.
Second, Reza’s reference to Pakistan’s treatment of the Ahmadiyya’s was:
Those zealous Pakistani politicians get their “zeal” from the Pakistani constitution. The constitution specifically states that Ahmadiyyas are not “Muslim”. That constitutional provision, since 1974, has been tantamount to a government sanctioning of the persecution of Ahmadiyyas as well as Christians, Jews and Hindus in Pakistan.
My sincere hope is that all Bengalis will resist this kind of bigotry in Bangladesh. Any attempt to make it the business of government to decide who is or who is not of a particular religion should be resisted by all. My sincere hope is that Bengalis remember their past and stand up again for the rights of their fellow Bengalis to practice their faith without fear of persecution.
May 2nd, 2007 at 8:08 pm
It is interestig knowing history, but conditioning faith with historical figure is something else. Khalifaat, pir, sunni, shia, mirza, schools of thought, maulana, alem, Imam all are simply leaders with human views who leaded humanity with good intention in past. Creating or beliving sects, divisions based on these people and then attributing these to faith is we are doing since Adam. No one (belivers) disputes Quran, but as soon we drop to non-quarnaic source all sects and division pops up. They all know well that they do not stand a chance to stand alone, hence desperately creates convulated self made explanation and ends up reffering to Quran. Precious time gets watsed on unaccounatble non-quranic materials.
May 2nd, 2007 at 10:13 pm
Mash,
I agree with your comments and observations regarding the Ahmadiyyas and would like to hope that we Bangladeshis can be above such bigotry.
As for the term Qadiyani - if I remember correctly, the Rabwah-based followers - the more fundamentalist ones are called Qadiyanis and the Lahore-based followers are simply called Ahmadiyyas.
I do not honestly recall that my school-friends were offended by that term. But it was many, many years ago and things might have changed.
May 3rd, 2007 at 8:13 am
Mash, once again, thanks for an injection of common sense into the discussion. But let me note this: Pakistan’s constitutionS have all been worth less than the paper they were written on. There’s nothing better than practising rights in one’s life, whatever they are on paper.
Fugstar, I don’t understand if you meant if I’ve hit your nerve or if you’ve hit mine. Yes you did :). No, I don’t support violence against the innocent, so I don’t approve of Nasser and Mubarak’s crackdowns against all of the Ikhwan. However, violence must be met with the force of the state and the law, otherwise we have anarchy - and everyone loses instead of some people losing disproportionately.
If anything, an argument can be made that excessive violence can radicalise Islamist movements. However, empirical evidence points towards what I have suggested, a softening. What does radicalise Islamists is social exclusion and ostracisation. What Asif in the other post pointed out as not going and talking to the madrassah student.
Anthony, yes it applies to any ideology. Islamist political parties like to think they’re exceptional. In the end, they act like any other once they start playing the electoral game.
May 3rd, 2007 at 10:43 am
“Islamist political parties like to think they’re exceptional. In the end, they act like any other once they start playing the electoral game.”
here here. I wish they could see it though. yes your nerve.
I know its the tendancy of relativist Human rightists to always take the side of the oppressed and empathise with victimised. But i feel it takes two sides to tango. Of course its the more powerful side that holds the cards. But i dont think that its just a small bunch muslims in the wrong here.
What does the Ahmedi khalifa have to say about this mess?
May 3rd, 2007 at 12:32 pm
What does the Ahmedi khalifa have to say about this mess?
“Stop killing us in the name of a paranoid interpretation of religion, you majoritorian thugs”?
And I have to admit, I concur.
May 3rd, 2007 at 12:58 pm
Reza, I am not sure how the term evolved in its use in Pakistan - it may have evolved into a slur (can anyone provide some background, thanks). I know that the Lahore movement also uses it as a slur against the Ahmadiyaa Muslim Community!
AsifY, you are right about the value of the constitution in Pakistan. However, it, along with the ever popular ordinances, are generally used by the government to retroactively “legalize” its actions in Pakistan (something Bangladeshi military governments learned well after 1975). So, if you want to find the bigots’ rationale for persecution, it is a good place to look.
Finally, I am astounded by the direction of the conversation from Fugstar. I find the following statement to be fascinating as well as disturbing:
Color me naive but I thought the victim is the one who is having his/her human rights violated. It seems to make an awful lot of sense for a human rights activist to “empathise” with the victim of the human rights abuse. Personally, I find it difficult to empathise with the human rights abuser, but maybe I’m just naive and don’t see things clearly.
You know, this thread started with discussion of a bomb attack. It has now led to this:
By that token, the Ahmadiyyas have a right to protect their religious beliefs as well. This notion that somehow protecting one’s own “doctrine” requires an attack, rhetorical or otherwise, on another’s religion is at the heart of all religious persecution. It also signals a certain wobblines in one’s own relgious beliefs.
Violence and persecution of religious minorities does not just spontaneously appear one day. Persecution always finds a rationale in the language of protecting one’s doctrine from “misinterpretation”. Its the smart kids who lead the thugs toward violence by their oh so clever and self-righteous arguments in defense of their religious dogma.
May 3rd, 2007 at 2:26 pm
Mash
Based on what you can know and what you trust i wouldnt expect anything different from you. I’d like to know the role of the global ahmedi community leadership, thats all. The pictures painted on the issue lack a lot of data, its like seeing a sunset in the desert through a thick, green lens.
I wasnt trying to disturb anyones subcontinentally confused religion issues.
Dhanmondhi,
is that for real or are you really putting words in his mouth.
May 3rd, 2007 at 3:01 pm
Dhanmondhi,
is that for real or are you really putting words in his mouth.
Put it down to human empathy, fugstar. You should try it out sometime.
Imgagine a scenario where your family is being killed and raped because you’re religious beliefs are different from the majority-based belief. Now imagine how you might remonstrate.
May 3rd, 2007 at 4:48 pm
Fugstar,
Pray enlighten us: what IS the role of the “global Ahmedi leadership”? Are they causing all the wars in the world a la Mel Gibson? Are they funding NGOs? Are they deliberately misinforming Mash? Seriously, what have these people done that deserve such wide-scale retribution and intimidation?
It might take two to tango, but as I’ve said repeatedly before: when 90% of a religion takes on
May 3rd, 2007 at 4:50 pm
It might take two to tango, but as I’ve said repeatedly before: when 90% of a religion takes on
May 3rd, 2007 at 5:35 pm
(sorry comment kept being truncated) less than 10% out of FEAR, there’s something seriously wrong with the 90%.
Sid, majoritarianism simply doesn’t describe it. Intense paranoia is more like it.
May 3rd, 2007 at 7:49 pm
Fugstar, I like this one from you a lot:
I wasn’t aware I or anyone on this thread, except perhaps with one exception, had a religion issue. As I recall, you are the one concerned with Islamic doctrine’s right to protect itself.
I frankly don’t care if the guy next to me is worshipping a rock and calling it God. That’s really his business, as long as he isn’t trying to make me do the same. This incessant need to shove one’s “religious truth” down the throat of one’s neighbor would be comical if it was not followed by violence.
There is a reason why I don’t like religious zealots. They seem to think its their business what everyone else does. My advice to these zealots would be to concentrate more on practicing their own religion and less on forcing others to practice their religion.
May 3rd, 2007 at 8:51 pm
Apologists are despicable, even those of secularity.
The tedious claptrap of Ahmadis, Sunnis, Shias, Piralis, etceteras, mustn’t deter us from knowing the history of Islam on the Indian subcontinent.
I say this without any romantic delusions about Islam or Sanatana Dharma, religion has, always, psychologically and emotionally blackmailed the general, disenfranchised, population of the Indian subcontinent.
The Delhi Sultanate saw the highest increase in buying and selling of girls/women, clerical obscurantism, etc.
It’s been quite some time since the advent of Islam, and yet, there is evincibly very little of Islam as a liberatory religion on the Indian subcontinent. All I witnessed in BD is unquestioning servility and servitude (perhaps with a dozen exceptions).
If I was to show genuine concern for the intellectual acuity of fellow Bengalis, I’d say truthfully that “allah” is, simply, etymologically derived from an Arabic name for a pre-Islamic Arabic murthi (idol). Salman Rushdie wasn’t the first to point this out in his book of Satan Verses. The Arabs already know this but they won’t deign to tell this to a simple peasant in a village in BD.
It might not happen in my life time but, still, I am optimistic about a genuine liberation of people across the globe.
For BD to stop intellectual stagnation, all types of people in BD (religious and the irreligious) must be treated with understanding, and at the same time challenge the bigots and hate-mongers in an educative manner.
May 3rd, 2007 at 10:45 pm
Wow, going far afield now with the following:
The etymology of the word “Allah” is not as simple as you portray. If you want to show “genuine concern for the intellectual acuity of Bengalis” you also need to be intellectually honest. I won’t attempt to try to write down here the many roots of its derivation as the exercise is fairly pointless in the context of this thread - I advise anyone interested to use “the google”
There must be something in the water today.
May 3rd, 2007 at 11:44 pm
I dont know what the role is, i was just curious. Clearly the wrong space for that.
90% take on 10%, i assume thats the shia sunni thing right? I think numbers are misleading there, space and time and power are more important here. Iran historically was Sunni up until the safavids, Egypt had an interesting time under the Fatimids, plenty of the rulers of Bengal were shia before, though they didnt really go about fidling (i think).
majoritarianism vs paranioa
I think its just misshapen character and criminality of a minority within the sunni fold.
Dhanmondhi
Why are you trying to guilt trip me with the empathise with being raped and pillaged lark?
As well as the human rights element and the sharia infringment of people acting like beasts there are historical reasons for the emergence of religious groups which is absent from the activism and would give it more traction and credibility with the people whose attitudes and practice its trying to make better.
South Asia is full of religions.+ Then theres another angle, anyone remember the Musaylama and Abubakr (ra)?
May 4th, 2007 at 6:41 am
Yes, yes Muhammad Lodhi,
Islam is simply an “Arab cult”, the Dehli sultante brought evil to India and religion is the most evil thing of all (but Islam is the most evil of this evil thing, a la Christopher Hitchens). In fact, all versions of Islam are true except the ones that Muslims hold. We’ve heard it all before, and we’ll hear it again and this is the kind of rhetoric, poised admirably at the crossing between European Orientalism and it’s Hindutva spawn.
May I suggest “Orientalism” by Edward Said and the writings of the Subaltern Studies group if you can get hold of them? You might like the latter, they were mostly “Bengali” (the non-colonial term is Bangali). Because this sort of deliberate misreading of history does not help anyone, and simply makes subcontinental Muslims dupes and fools to be driven out of the pristine subcontinent. More than Rushdie, your reading’s closer to Naipaul.
May 4th, 2007 at 10:44 am
majoritarianism vs paranioa
I think its just misshapen character and criminality of a minority within the sunni fold.
So much easier to brush it all under the carpet when you hide behind the “criminal minority” canard. So easy to ignore the fact that attacks have all been sanctioned by the popular BNP-Jamaat coalition, who want to legalise and extend their attacks under the ratification of a Blasphemy Act, a lá Pakistan.
Dhanmondhi
Why are you trying to guilt trip me with the empathise with being raped and pillaged lark?
It’s funny how Sunni attacks of a Muslim minority are a “lark” and ideologically justifiable but US attacks on Muslims is the stuff of “Evil Empire”.
May 4th, 2007 at 10:46 am
AsifY,
Actually, Rushdie and Naipaul have very, very different views about Islam’s impact on South Asia. Naipaul argues that Delhi Sultanate and the Mughals brought evil to India. Rushdie is ambivalent about the Turkic sultans, but considers Mughals to be very much a part of the Desi milieu. And I think you’re being a tad bit harsh on Hitchens. While he defends the indefensible in Iraq, he doesn’t quite say that Islam is more evil than other religions (yes, he does say all religions are evil).
I’d recommend Tariq Ali’s ‘Islamic civilisation’ novels. Ali is a much better polemicist than a novellist, but the ideas are worth a read.
May 4th, 2007 at 5:16 pm
“So easy to ignore the fact that attacks have all been sanctioned by the popular BNP-Jamaat coalition”
You see, i dont know that fact as well as you do. I dont trust the same sources you do.
“It’s funny how Sunni attacks of a Muslim minority are a “lark” and ideologically justifiable but US attacks on Muslims is the stuff of “Evil Empire”.
You need to seperate your anger at whats happening from your impression that im justifying or perpetuating cruelty and your counter conspiracy that the Muslim beleivers are mistaken in thinking that something there material and non material worlds are still being invaded and misused.
This is going nowhere as usual, lets stop pleasuring ourselves.
May 4th, 2007 at 7:06 pm
Anthony,
I am aware of the difference between Rushdie and Naipaul (after all, I never said I admired Khomeinei, did i?;)). That’s why I said that his reading seems closer to Naipaul’s hardline one than Rushdie’s more “secular” one. I don’t care if people regard Islam as a man-made faith, just as long as they don’t peddle old Orientalist myths. E.g. Karen Armstrong is one of my favourite authors.
I’m going to stick to my guns on Hitchens. It’s not something I can put a finger on or have the time to analyse, but it’s palpably there that he thinks that religious Muslims are the worst. Maybe it is his siding on the Iraq war, maybe it’s the fact that Slate.com ran an article last week on him debunking Islam under the headline of him debunking religion. In either case, while I am very fond of people who believe that religion is a sham (eg. Asimov, Carl Sagan, etc. etc.), my issue with Hitchens is that he is half-baked at best.
I’ll check out Tariq Ali’s novels. Is that his trilogy or pentalogy(?)? On my part, I’d recommend that you check two guys who write about Bangali Muslims: Patrick Wolfe and Richard Eaton.
May 4th, 2007 at 11:35 pm
Mash
First of all, I meant what I said (my “genuine concern” is sincere), so, the issue of my dishonesty (and there being something in the water) seems to me a personal slur.
Dishonesty lies in mullahs and pundits bullshitting people.
I said “simply” not simple.
What are the roots? Where can you direct us (googlewise)? As far as I know the founding of Islam resulted in a ban on the feminine use of “allah.”
Maybe your personal slur has to do with me not buying into the bullshit.
AsifY
Please try not to presume something about someone. I don’t think Islam is the “most evil thing”, you are suggesting that. I think religion is detrimental to my mental health (mens sana in corpore sano).
Orientalism? What? Hindutva? Is this an inadvertent attempt at insulting me (a la Mash, et al)?
Bengali/Bangali? Come off it! You’re making me laugh. According to this type of reasoning, someone could come upto me and say that they want me to say Bongyo/Vang[a]ya, etc, because that’s more authentic, because it predates Persian, Arab, and Turk colonialists.
For your information, I don’t share Naipaul’s Hindutva loving nonsense, and, just because I cited Rushdie, it doesn’t mean I like Rushdie. Google “presumption” or “presupposition” and you’ll know what I mean.
I cannot fathom the type of arrogance required of someone to think that a given religion is not “man-made.”
Thanks for enhancing my understanding.
May 5th, 2007 at 6:35 am
Muhamad Lodhi, you can take my comments any way you like. Your comments were intellectually dishonest and your smug little formulation (”If I was to show genuine concern for the intellectual acuity of fellow Bengalis”) speaks for itself. Add to that the strangely dishonest email that you sent me on this topic, it further confirms my statement about intellectual dishonesty.
You say:
I am not sure how the above leaves any room for discussion on the matter of religion. Pat yourself on the back for that comment - I am sure you can find a religious board where countless folks will want to engage you in an intellectual food fight on the issue.
I have no desire to get into a pissing match with you over something of relatively minor import to me, and of even lesser relevance to the post we are commenting on. Like I said, use “the google” - its really not that hard to search for things, you know. I also have no desire or time to carry on a separate email conversation with you beyond this comment thread.
Now, if you will excuse me, I have to go watch some grass grow
May 5th, 2007 at 8:34 am
“The Delhi Sultanate saw the highest increase in buying and selling of girls/women, clerical obscurantism, etc.” - Hindutva-types will love you was all I was implying. And it’s absolutely unproved/disprovable. Highest increase? As compared to the rest of India, the rest of the world, the rest of time? Also, really shoddy math.
“The Arabs already know this but they won’t deign to tell this to a simple peasant in a village in BD.” - “Arab-cult”, Orientalist myths and Patricia Crone-type scholarship.
“Man-made” - I said I had no trouble if people think it’s man-made, just as long as they don’t sound like the Orientalists of yore. Seriously check out the book.
As for the rest, Mash has said it better than I possibly could.
May 5th, 2007 at 8:36 am
And lastly….
But does Vangaya predate “Aryan” colonialists? The horrors! Stop concentrating on throw-away lines and deal with the substance of what I said.